If your husband is constantly angry, you’ve probably tried everything to calm the tension. You stay kind, patient, careful, and endlessly understanding. But what if his irritation and outbursts still never make sense? When his anger erupts out of nowhere, it can function as a tactic to control you. Sudden anger knocks you off balance and makes you doubt yourself. It quietly trains you to walk on eggshells. The more unpredictable he becomes, the more power his anger holds over your choices, your home, and your peace. This pattern feels confusing for many women. He often cycles back to being sweet, apologetic, or even tender. That emotional whiplash erodes your instincts. You start wondering if you imagined the problem, if he is “just stressed,” or if you somehow caused the tension. If you are wondering about emotional abuse  take our free emotional abuse quiz. Why Your Husband Is Constantly Angry: The Hidden Purpose Behind His Rage Anne: Today’s guest, Faith, a member of our community, experienced her husband’s anger and she tried everything she could to help him. Here’s part of her story. Faith: His yelling and everything just got to be so much and I thought why is my husband yelling at me? We went to two different Christian counselors. I remember very distinctly, this is not helping. It was like trying to dissect my childhood. And I don’t understand how this is on me when my husband is constantly angry. Anne: If your husband’s anger makes no sense, listen up. Maybe something little sets him off, something that didn’t set him off yesterday or the day before. Or maybe it comes out of nowhere. Like he says, you have the wrong tone, or you used the wrong word. And no matter how calm or kind you are in your attempt to avoid pushing his buttons. He’s still irritated, snappy, or raging, blaming you for something. Control, The Real Reason For His Anger Anne: A lot of women tell me they thought their husband’s anger was about work, stress, financial pressure, but underneath those “reasons”, there’s usually something deeper going on. If he’s constantly angry, his frustration isn’t about any of those things. It’s actually about control. For example, he might use anger to shut down your questions when he hides secret spending or late night behavior he doesn’t wanna explain. He might use it to make you doubt yourself, so you stop suspecting something’s wrong. Or train you to stay quiet, careful, and small, because that keeps him in charge. And just when you start to notice the pattern, he switches. He’s nice again, apologetic, sweet. The man you thought you married. So of course you’re gonna think things are getting better or it won’t happen again. But that’s part of how the lies work. When your husband is constantly angry, his anger controls you through fear, and his apology controls you through hope. Faith lived through this pattern.. From the start of our marriage, his anger got worse. And every time she tried to help, the focus somehow shifted back to her, her childhood, her reactions, her supposed part of the problem. Like so many women, she kept asking, what am I doing wrong? She tried everything, counseling, caregiving, and prayer. While he twisted her every effort to keep her confused about what was going on. Transcript: When your husband is constantly angry Anne: Faith, welcome. Faith: Thank you Anne, it’s good to be here. Anne: So let’s start with your story. Faith: I met my husband in the summer. He was a member of my faith community. And while we were dating, I ignored so many silent red flags in our relationship. I actually even know he had mentioned that he used porn at somebody else’s home, that was a Christian family. And it just all seemed so weird to me. Anne: He’s part of your faith community, what did you think of him at that time? Faith: He was very dynamic, very outgoing. I actually knew that I was lowering my standards as far as some of the things I was looking for by being with him. I knew he had sexual partners prior to me. And that was something important to me. I didn’t want to marry someone who was already sexually active. So I lowered that standard. But I don’t understand why my husband is constantly angry. He drank, he smoked. All those things I wasn’t looking for. But I felt like God wanted me to be with him. Maybe if I influenced and impacted him and his life. Then he would also be a better person. Anne: Let’s talk about the manipulation from the very beginning for a minute. The manipulation begins Anne: Thinking back, when you’re going through it, you don’t recognize this. So this is not something that you would’ve known then. You didn’t do anything wrong, and you were doing the best you could. So when I say this, I’m actually trying to look more at his behaviors than what you were doing. Was there something he did in the beginning to manipulate you to think that? The reason I’m asking is, ’cause in the beginning a lot of men will say things like, “You’re so incredible. You make me a better person. You’re such a good example.” Faith: Well, he did make comments like, I was a good example in his life. Anne: That’s just something that I wanna point out to women. Sometimes you think that it was like a failing on your part, but it’s manipulation on their part from the very beginning. And knowing that helps you heal. ‘Cause you’re like, wait a minute, I didn’t do anything wrong. Part of what we’re going through is trying to realize what actually happened. Faith: We actually broke up twice while dating. We argued a lot, and there were several times that I just couldn’t do it anymore. And again, I felt ignored. There was a lot of anger in him. I always wanted to marry and start a family, I was very young when I met him. I was probably about 19 and I just felt like starting over. This sounds ridiculous, at 21, 22, would just set me back in my timeline. I still felt strongly that I was supposed to be with him. There were some weird, quirky things that we had in common that I took as signs that we should be together. PATTERNS OF CONTROL WHEN A HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY Anne: Did those end up being true later or was he mirroring? Faith: I don’t think that they were enough reason to marry a person, looking back. We had the same first birthday cake, smash cake. We grew up for the first year of our lives on the same street, and didn’t even know it. It was just very weird. Anne: Like it felt cosmic at the time. Faith: But really silly now. It was a whirlwind. I guess I just got caught up in him. Everything became about him. I just thought my husband is constantly angry at me, and it was always something that I did. And I remember one instance where we were at church together, but he was separate from me. He was standing towards the back and I just motioned for him. It was natural to me to just motion and like point to where he could sit next to me. And he became livid with just that simple action, acting like I was treating him like a dog, telling him where to sit. There was an instance where he was very angry. He had an old car that didn’t have air conditioning. He refused to put the windows down for me. We weren’t far from my house, so I remember vividly. I will suck it up. And I’m not letting him know that this gets to me. I could not breathe in the car. I always took blame for his anger Anne: Back then, did you think it was you when your husband is constantly angry? Like if you were different then he wouldn’t be angry, or did you just think like he’s a little crazy? Faith: No, I always viewed it as me. That I made a mistake or I did something, or I did too much, or I was too much. Anne: The whole time you’re trying to improve the situation, you’re doing what any good person would do. You’re like, how can I improve our relationship? So can you talk about the things you tried? It could be anywhere from wearing makeup, to going to couple therapy, to making dinner. It could be any one of various things that we try. Would you take us through all that? Before you discovered his lies. Faith: When he proposed to me. He wanted a quick turnaround. We were engaged for about a year and a half. I actually had some cold feet. But like everything is paid for, and I just kept pushing through. And I got a job and moved out, and he was gonna then move in with me once we were married. Automatically that set me up as a provider. Once we were married, it was about five months in, he worked in a cemetery. He fell into a grave and hurt his back very badly. Anne: Wow, that’s kind of an intense story, sorry. I fell into a grave. Faith: I should also include that I got pregnant right away. There were conversations about him wanting to have a child and immediate. conflict about when to have children Faith: And it was like, no, we should wait. Just get used to being married and being with one another first. I ended up pregnant, and I honestly don’t know how. I don’t know as far as birth control and stuff like that goes. It was a surprise, it was a shock. So here we are, probably a month and a half into our marriage, I find out I’m pregnant. And then five months in, he is hurt. And I’m his caregiver. I can barely even put on my own socks, and I’m having to shower him, wash him, put on his socks, and take him to therapy. And he was on medication. And so I started to blame everything on the medication. I ignored all the signs prior to that. But the medication seemed to make everything worse. I called the police to my house before, because of his verbal aggression. My husband is constantly angry and he’s yelling, and everything just got so much worse. Even after we had our baby, it was awful. We actually went to our church. And our pastor recommended a Christian counselor. So we went to two different Christian counselors. I remember first a male and then a female. And I honestly don’t remember, it’s been so long that I don’t remember why we made the switch. But I remember very distinctly, this is not helping. It was like trying to dissect my childhood and stuff like that. And I don’t understand how this is becoming turned around on me when my husband is constantly angry. Manipulation Continues with outbursts of anger when your husband is constantly angry Faith: So there were several more outbursts, I would say. I don’t remember what we were fighting about. Our daughter was probably about three years old, and I had her in the shower. He was so angry that he ripped the shower head from the shower. It was one of those hanging ones. I could no longer rinse her or anything like that. Then he left. I didn’t know where he went. That was probably the last outburst I remember as a big fight. And then I think I just learned I’m not gonna push his buttons. Like if I remain calm and stop being the trigger for his anger, then he won’t be angry. Anne: That is so hard, because none of us realize this, that is a form of control. So you’re then living in this box or this glass house a little bit or something. These parameters that you can’t cross, because those are the ones he set up. He built it around you, without you even realizing what had happened. So that you’re limited in what you can do, what you can say, and what you can express. He built all those limitations around you, manipulating you through his anger, because your husband is constantly angry. And that’s not how we view it when we’re going through it. Because we view it as like, if I don’t do this, he won’t get angry. Rather than he got angry on purpose about these things in order to control me. So that control that you were living under, of course you did not realize it. Was he calling you controlling? How was he lying about you at this time? Faith: I definitely know that there were times where he was saying that I was questioning him too much. calling the police didn’t help Anne: The questioning him too much is very common for someone who’s lying a lot. Then your husband is constantly angry. Because they don’t want a lot of questions. They’re very annoying to liars. Faith: Honestly, I can’t remember even what caused the fights. He makes sure now, he even told our kids, that I hit him three times. I do remember fighting him once, I don’t even think I would call it a slap. I think it was more like a push away kind of swat. But I always recognized that I was becoming someone I didn’t like. Regardless of what was going on in the relationship. And I also wanna mention that I learned pretty quickly. He punched a hole in a door. He had threatened verbally to bury me in my backyard. At that point, I did call the police, and he would go outside and wait for them to come. And looking back on that, I can see where police would come see a calm man, and the irrational, crazy woman is in the house, so upset, emotionally distraught. Eventually I also learned not to even call them. Several times it was offered to me to file a PFA, but I knew it would be over. And at that point I think I was in protection of children mode. I knew that if, I filed a PFA… Anne: For our listeners who aren’t aware of what a PFA is, could you define that? Faith: It’s an order of protection from abuse. And my husband told me that if I did that, the relationship would be over. There would be no repairing it. And to have a young child in that, I felt very protective of her. How Anger, Apology, and Control Create a Cycle of Confusion Faith: He was military background, military trained, and so he could disappear with her. There was a strong desire to keep my family together. And a religious belief that was anti-divorce, like divorce was not in the vocabulary. Anne: Did you do any other counseling other than the Christian counseling that you talked about? Faith: No, at some point I called our female counselor late at night one night. And talked with her over the phone because I was so upset. It seemed like I’m just tattling on him and getting no help. It’s not helping. And then, like I said, there was a period where things calmed. It actually seemed like it improved. I tricked myself into thinking everything healed, because his anger lessened. We actually had another child. During that time, I would’ve categorized our relationship as pretty good. There were still gaps. There were still things like he was staying up late at night, not going to bed with me. We weren’t communicating that great. There were missing things. There were pieces of the puzzle of our relationship. It seemed like a big hole that I could not fill. I couldn’t figure out what it was. So we went to Family Life Weekend to Remember, one geared just to us. Then we went back and volunteered. When we volunteered, I thought, and this is it. We could be like a power couple and tell what our story was and how we got through it. How we came about healing, and that was not true at all. Financial Abuse takes off when your husband is constantly angry Anne: He was good at pretending and playing the part. Faith: Yes, and we would come home from those things, like we would learn all of these ways of connection and we would come home from those things and he might get up in the morning and gimme a hug before I left for work the next day. And then nothing after that. I just felt like an invisible person in my own home. Anne: And at this time when your husband is constantly angry, were you still the sole provider? Faith: Yes, I have always been the primary breadwinner. He eventually owned his own business after he got fired. It was a couple years after he started his own business where financial abuse took off. It became apparent that he was paying himself into our joint account for a couple of years. And then suddenly, he actually didn’t discuss it with me. He said, I opened up my own account. And that’s to protect us in case I am sued by anybody.They can’t come after what we have. They can only come after what I have. But that was very much part of what he spent on things. His money was his money. And my money was our money. Anne: Our money, these stories unfortunately all have similar patterns. So I’m guessing, it’s so typical of a man who lies like this. Who’s taking these steps to protect his lies, that the next thing that happens is that you find something out. I’m not sure if that’s where you were going. How He Used Anger to Cover His Lies and Confuse the Truth Faith: Yes, I was. Anne: Okay, so let’s talk about that. Like how did you find out what he actually did with his unaccounted for time? Faith: So ironically, I was going to counseling with my pastor at the time, me individually because something feels off. Feel off, meaning I feel like something is wrong. Something was missing, and it had to be within me. It was my problem to deal with. And so I came home from a counseling session. It probably would’ve been around the fall, Which was the same time my mom was diagnosed with cancer. So all kinds of things in my own personal life are going on. And my husband tells me point blank that he no longer loves me anymore. But he’ll still protect me and die for me. So I take that as a twist on scripture, because in our faith, the man is to be the protector. And I was devastated to hear that. Then shortly after that he told me that he had an issue with porn and that he needed me to help him with that. Anne: What did he say? What lie did he tell, that you needed to help him with? Was it that you needed to give him sex when he wanted, so he didn’t look at porn. How, did he lie to you in that way to manipulate you? Faith: The fact that I had a low drive. I wasn’t giving him enough, so I needed to be there for him when he needed me, So that he didn’t view porn. Finding out about him betraying me Anne: Was this backed up by like the pastor or therapist or anyone else that enabled this type of lie to take root? Faith: I honestly don’t know. Because at this point, I was going to talk with someone. But we were not seeing anyone together. And this was so devastating and embarrassing. I remember feeling so embarrassed. Like who do I talk to? I told my best friend. And I told the pastor that I was talking with for counseling. I’m not gonna say that it didn’t seem like a big deal to them, but it’s like their hands are tied. There’s nothing out there. It was just like, there’s nothing out there for help. I felt so alone. I had nothing. It started to feel like, this is Every Man’s Battle. Anne: Yeah. Faith: And that’s like, yeah, I do have to step up and help him. So I took it upon myself that I communicated with him. I’m just not gonna tell you no. I often slept downstairs. I have several health issues, migraines, vertigo, and it would be compounded sleeping in the same bed with someone else. So I just slept downstairs and he woke me up one night. I was in a dead sleep, so it was like, no. And he went upstairs at that point I’m awake and I decided to follow him and he was in our bedroom with a tablet and I just lost it. I was like, it doesn’t even matter, and I actually left the house for the night. And slept in my car, in my church parking lot. When your husband is constantly angry His deep character shows through Faith: We never discussed our issues. So when I surfaced the next day, I put on a happy face and pretended to be the happy family. He didn’t even ask where I went. There was no worrying, no concern for my wellbeing of where I was for the night. He blamed me that he had to take the kids to soccer hungover. I took that pretty hard too, because his drinking always bothered me. He would use scripture to say, “As long as I’m not drunk, I’m not breaking scripture.” Like you can drink in moderation and be okay. But here he admits he was drunk, and blames me. For having the responsibilities he had as a dad the following day and for his behavior the night before. That’s when some things started to unravel for me as far as his deep character. Who he claims to be is not who he is. I started to definitely put up some walls. I was still not saying no, I just know that it was like a checklist. Just something I have to do. I guess the phrase I wanna use is not rock the boat when my husband is constantly angry. And then, I’m going to give all the credit to God, because the scales started to fall off my eyes. I know many people criticize Focus on the Family in our circles. But God can use anything. I’m a firm believer in that. There was a man named Brant Hansen who was on Focus on the Family on my way to work. And he was talking about men being keepers of the garden, and he came to the conclusion that he was, who his wife needed protection from. Things Start to unravel Faith: It was something about the phrase. That he was willing to die for her, but did he truly cherish and love her? And boy did that phrasing wake me up after hearing what my husband had told me. The Lord started to use that to wake me up to what I was actually living in. And once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Anne: Right. Faith: Things started to unravel from there. I couldn’t go back. My husband was amping it up as far as like, blaming me for erectile dysfunction. When he was on many medications. He was drinking heavily, none of that could have influenced his inabilities. But it was all my fault. I had actually called off work one day to spend the whole day with him. I came down the steps and he said, “It would be really nice if you put on red lipstick.” So it was funny to me that you mentioned makeup, because I actually don’t wear makeup. It’s never been something I’ve been comfortable doing. I just never liked it. That’s not part of who I am. I don’t even own red lipstick. So nothing happened that day because I was so upset. Anne: Yeah. Faith: I said, I feel like you don’t wanna be with me. You’re asking me to become someone else so that you can be turned on, or whatever it is that you’re looking for. It is not me. Anne: He didn’t even know you well enough to know that you didn’t have any. Faith: Right. Anne: Or alternatively, maybe he did, and he was lying to really hurt you. That could be true too. Wow, I’m so sorry. Feeling like a failure as a wife Faith: I ended up doing the things that he asked me to do. I went and bought lipstick. I went and got some lingerie, and believe it or not, it still did not go well. Anne: Sorry, I believe you. Faith: So that was the last time that we were intimate and I use intimate in the loosest term because there was definitely no real true intimacy probably the entire marriage. I could no longer open myself up and I actually didn’t know the language, so I didn’t know that I was putting in place boundaries. Because I was uncomfortable sharing myself with him. I didn’t know that. At that point, it was like, I’m just a failure as a wife. I can’t do anything to please him, because my husband is constantly angry. Nothing was ever pleasant. So if we were on a date night, he would always bring up a rough topic. On this particular date night, he told me he was looking into getting a penis pump, so that he could do whatever he needed. And prevent prostate cancer. And I have a medical history of HPV, which he’s been my only partner. Anne: Oh, yeah. Faith: So considering that could cause cervical cancer. I seriously couldn’t even believe what was coming out of his mouth. Anne: Right. Finding BTR when your husband is constantly angry Faith: It’s all self, everything that came out of his mouth just sounded so selfish to me anymore. Anne: Yeah, for good reason ‘ cause it was selfish. Faith: So I came across BTR and Betrayal Trauma Group sessions.. I really don’t know how, I think I was just searching best betrayal trauma resources online. I didn’t even know what betrayal trauma was. And I didn’t know that’s what was going on with me. It was definitely a God thing, because it seemed like it came out nowhere and was a much needed resource. Because you were the first to tell me exactly everything that was my experience. And I listen to you when I’m driving. I just found myself crying with you, laughing with you at times too. And I just wanna take this time right now to thank you for putting yourself out there to help others. Because without you, I would still probably think I am crazy. Because many of the groups I participate in still don’t talk about porn use as that betrayal piece. Yes, they recognize it, I think, as contributing to a destructive relationship, would be their terminology. But the pieces that you hit on, it’s exactly everything I experienced, and it just made it all make sense. I’m not crazy. Anne: You’re surviving crazy, but you are not crazy, and so much of it, even the parts that you think maybe you missed, or that you think maybe you allowed it, or something like that. That’s not true. It’s what he’s manipulated you to think because he’s a liar, but not because it’s actually true. And it takes a while to separate all that manipulation from the truth, when your husband is constantly angry,. His problems have nothing to do with you Anne: I’m so grateful my podcast was helpful. Is there anything that you would you like to share with women who are listening? Faith: I think what I would wanna say is that you are worth so much. And it’s not your fault. It’s not on you, that you don’t have to carry the burdens on your shoulders. Anne: Yeah, it is such a burden, when your husband is constantly angry and he’s manipulating you. But then all the extra burden society puts on you. Or therapists who don’t understand the situation or other people who give you the impression that you had something to do with it or that you played a role and you didn’t. The first step to emotional safety is to recognize that it has literally nothing to do with you, even though it affects you very much. Because I think those two juxtaposition things where it’s like it doesn’t have anything to do with you, so it shouldn’t bother you very much. There’s that and that’s not true either. Even though it has nothing to do with you, it does hurt you and it affects you on a very deep level. Well, thank you so much for sharing part of your story. I would love to have you come back in six months or a year to let us know where you are then. Therapy never works with a liar Anne: So are you still married now? What’s your current situation? Faith: My current situation, he actually suggested couple therapy again. I filed for divorce, last year. Our oldest daughter just turned 19, and our youngest is 15. In my state, everything is a 50/50 split. They don’t care what your story is. My daughter started to refuse to go to his house, and so I’m now fighting for her. So far, the judge has heard her without even seeing her, that 50/50 is off the table. And although they are supposed to do counseling, that’s all starting right now, is them doing counseling. Anne: No one should ever, ever be suggesting, not the court, not anyone. Ever, ever be suggesting counseling if a husband is constantly angry or with someone who is abusive. Faith: I know how it went for me. I feel like they’re never going to label him as abusive. It’s never going to happen. It doesn’t matter like what my experiences have been. Anne: No, and it doesn’t matter what anyone’s are. Sorry, I just get livid about it. Faith: I know. Anne: Therapy never works with a liar. It never ever does. It never ever will. You’re only putting someone in harm’s way. Even if you don’t wanna call him an abuser, at the very least he’s a liar. So he is never gonna benefit from therapy. Taking off the mask and finding Family Support when your husband is constantly angry Faith: I have been fortunate to have a dad who believes me and supports me, because I know I lived a lie. I lived with a mask that I presented to the world. And I said, “I’m not going to do that anymore.” When I investigated how bad the situation was to get a divorce, I sat my kids down and I said, “I’m going to be the one who tears our family apart.” I was crying. They looked at each other, smiled and said, “Mom, it’s about time.” So, kids see, kids definitely see. Anne: Well, Faith, you are incredible. Thank you so, so much for coming and sharing your story, and I look forward to you coming back on the podcast to let us know how you’re doing. Thank you so much. Faith: Thank you Anne.

Coercive control is a sustained pattern of controlling a domestic partner. However, coercive control inherently means that it’s not a partnership at all. Here’s why. Coercive Control Definition Coercive control is a sustained pattern of control in marriage through deception. It’s a system of deception and manipulation meant to give one partner power while maintaining the appearance of normalcy, even goodness. The key word is pattern. Often, the spouse being controlled doesn’t recognize it. From the outside, all she sees is a husband who seems kind, composed, spiritual, or self-aware. And coercive control can continue both during marriage and after separation or divorce. If your husband starts to exhibit behaviors he never exhibited before marriage, it’s likely that the man you fell in love with was a mask he wore to coerce you to marry him. This means you may have been experiencing emotional and psychological abuse the entire time. Learning the 19 different types of emotional abuse is essential. Our free emotional abuse quiz will help you see if what you’re experiencing is harmful to you. Why Coercive Control Is So Hard to Identify When your marriage isn’t functioning as a partnership, it can be incredibly difficult to name why. That’s because coercive control isn’t just manipulation, it’s an entire hidden structure. Many men who use coercive control work very hard to conceal it. They may appear: Calm Rational Faithful Engaged in therapy “Trying” Accountable Meanwhile, their wives often feel: Confused Anxious Emotionally exhausted Responsible for everything wrong Like they’re “too sensitive” I’ve interviewed over 200 women who have experienced coercive control in marriage. Many are highly educated. Some work in mental health, law, social work, or education. They understand trauma and communication systems. And almost all of them say: “I don’t know how I missed it.” Here’s the truth: If it’s happening to you, you didn’t miss it. It was purposefully hidden from you. The fundamental tactic of coercive control is deception. Transcript: Coercive Control in Marriage Anne:  Controlling and coercive men maintain power over their wives through deception. Wendy, a member of our community, is here to share her story. Welcome Wendy. Why don’t you start wherever you feel comfortable? Wendy: I was married for about 15 and a half years, and found out a couple years in that he was viewing exploitative content. I was crushed. I remember the first time I found out I went downstairs, and I curled up in a ball on the living room floor. And just crying, and it’s like the only time I remember being that devastated. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. He disclosed every so often that he viewed this. And of course, it seemed like it was just that one time. I’m a heavy sleeper, and I distinctly remember waking up a few times, feeling like I had had intercourse, but I didn’t remember. I remember feeling worthless, and I felt like everything in our relationship that was wrong was my fault. Because I didn’t enjoy it with my husband. And that’s when I discovered this whole new world. And I found out way more than I guess I ever wanted to know. The Miserable Experience Caused By Coercive Control you Can’t See Anne: I totally understand. At 30 I was a virgin and so excited. I’m not a prude by any stretch. We married, and after two days of, I was like, this is miserable. I felt like an object. The whole experience, everything around it was awful too. I just felt used and worthless. And then afterward I’d say something like, what are you thinking about? Hoping that he would connect with me in some way. And talk about me or us or something. But pretty much every time he’d say something like bike parts, and he’d be like staring into space. It felt completely disconnected. and. After a while, I was like, this isn’t fun for me at all. And this has nothing to do with me. It’s all about him. From then on, I didn’t want to, but I continued to initiate because I thought I had to. I thought it was my job. I thought it’s like a chore that I check off the list. And I did not realize that that was coercion. Wendy: Right, I enjoyed it when we first married. But then I suffered from what I thought was postpartum depression. Searching For Answers After Marriage Feels Off Wendy: I couldn’t even sleep in our bed. I slept on the couch. So I went to counseling and was better for a while. But I always felt like everything was my fault, and any issues were my fault. And there were people around me saying the same thing. Someone even told me that I should have it with my husband anytime he wanted. And that made me feel terrible. And I didn’t tell my husband about that. I kept that to myself. I just felt so worthless. For a while, I was like, Oh, well, my husband never abused me. I really thought that and then. In the school library online, I was looking for studies on abuse in marriage, and I was coming up empty. I just did a Google search and put in emotional abuse and marriage, and this study came up where they called it wife ##e. And that’s when it hit home, that’s what it was. Once I had that, I found a few more studies on it. I ended up on the National Domestic Violence Hotline website, and it actually has definitions of coercion. Defining What’s Happening To You as Coercive Control Wendy: It talked about coercion. I had mostly experienced the coercion. And then it led me to other resources. As I learned more about this topic, I thought, that is exactly what happened. My husband did do this to me, but it was the coercion part that struck me and hit home. And then he admitted to doing this to me in my sleep. I don’t want other women to experience the same thing I experienced for so long. Anne: It’s absolutely is, and a man can do this to his wife for years without her understanding what’s actually happening. Let’s go back to coercion. Cause it’s something I talk about so much here on the podcast. What did you learn about coercion in your research? Wendy: Sure, the first thing they mention is making you feel like you owe them because you’re married to them. You’re in a relationship, they spent money on you, they bought you a gift. They give you drugs and alcohol to loosen up your inhibitions, playing on the fact that you’re in a relationship. Saying such things as it is a way to prove your love for me. Examples Of Coercion Wendy: If I don’t get it from you, I’ll get it somewhere else. Reacting negatively with sadness, anger, or resentment. If you say no or don’t immediately agree to something. Continuing to pressure you after you say no. Making you feel threatened or afraid of what might happen if you say no. And trying to normalize their expectations. For example, I need it, I’m a man. Mostly it’s like trying to make you feel obligated. to have it with them. Anne: So many women feel obligated to have it with their husbands. They don’t want to, but they’re worried about the consequences if they stopped. Wendy: Right, yeah Anne: On the flip side, they could be abusive to you because they’re hiding things, and maybe hooking up with people. And they’re not initiating with you at all. Because they are spending all their energy outside the marriage Wendy: Right, and actually one of the studies I looked at mentioned that withholding can be a form of abuse. Anne: That’s something the abuser will do. The abuser will say she’s withholding. She’s abusing me. But withholding is completely different than not having it with someone, because they are emotionally and psychologically unsafe. Wendy: Exactly. Anne: This is why this issue is so difficult with therapists or clergy or other people who don’t understand coercion. Is they’ll say, well, wife, you’re the abusive one because you are withholding. Then, because they believe men need it or they’re going to die or something. If you feel uncomfortable having it with him. That justifies him having it with prostitutes or multiple affairs. The Myth of Male “Needs” When Justifing Abuse Anne: A man will not die if he does not have it. If so, what, all boys would die instantly when they were 12 or something? Wendy: Right, yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. Anne: So when you feel unsafe and don’t want to have it, and so you don’t. Why would you want to be intimate with your husband if he was yelling at you, for example? The addict or the abuser will accuse you of withholding. A mutually beneficial relationship is coercive. I don’t love the word consent. You might’ve heard a podcast I did about it previously, where we talk about how consent isn’t exactly the right word to use. Abusers think it’s the yes that matters, not how they get the yes. So they’re willing to lie to you to get a yes. Wendy: Personally, I didn’t realize that a mutual agreement between the partners about what they want needs to happen every time, and just because you’re in a relationship doesn’t automatically give consent. One of the things you talk about is safety. Anne: Yeah, safety is huge. If you want it to be mutually beneficial and emotionally and psychologically safe. Then you need to know the truth. That’s information you’d want to know just to be in a relationship with him, let alone have it with him. Wendy: Right, exactly. And there are lots of women that end up with an STD or an STI, and a lot of times the husband’s like, I don’t know how you got that. You got that from the toilet. You know, Anne, there’s one thing the National Domestic Violence Hotline website says sticks out. Recognizing Manipulation Wendy: It’s not consent if you’re afraid or unable to say no. So it’s not consent if you’re manipulated, pressured, or threatened to say yes. It’s also not consent if you’re unable to legitimately give consent, which includes being asleep, unconscious, or under the influence of conscious altering substances like alcohol. Some prescription medications and other drugs. Anne: Or if he’s purposefully hiding information from you. If he’s lying to you, that’s manipulation. If you think he’ll sleep with someone else, if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. And If you think he’ll divorce you if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. If you think he’ll be sulky all day, if you don’t have it with him, that is a threat. So when it says manipulated, pressured or threatened. To see us think about all the different ways, they threaten us most of the time, extremely subtly. Wendy: Yes, that also goes on in the manipulation. Because they’re already manipulating you. I thought it was interesting, because a lot of times they just talk about the abuses and physical assaults. That’s what TV and movies show. They don’t show this other stuff. And so I thought it was really interesting that the National Domestic Violence Hotline includes that in their information about consent and abuse by coercion. Anne: Yeah, I received a review from a man who said this podcast wasn’t great. Because my definition of abuse is different than the standard definition. And it’s legit, the definition of coercion we use here is the basic definition of coercion that the National Domestic Violence Hotline uses. I think he just doesn’t want to admit that this can happen to women for years by their own husband and not know. Recognizing Marital Coercion Anne: Here’s an example of how women don’t know they’re being harmed by this. I have a wonderful friend. She believes in not having it until marriage, and she was dating someone. And she said something about how she’d gone too far. I was like, what do you mean? And then she said, well, I don’t know. I didn’t want to have it. I kept saying, no, I tried not to, but then we did have it. and she just had this confused look on her face. And I told her what had been happening. And it was like I had punched her in the stomach. It was not until that moment that she realized this, and not just once. Multiple times over the three years she dated him. And I hugged her, and she backed away from me. She was obviously extremely traumatized, and this was a trauma response. And she was having maybe a panic attack. She was breathing heavily. She put her hands on the counter, and it took her a while to calm down. When she did, she said, I didn’t realize until this moment that my boyfriend had done this to me for three years. And so many women tell me the same story about what their husband chose to do to them. Most of the time when I talk to women before they realize what’s happening. I ask, are you being abused? They tell me no. We have a rough marriage, we have communication issues. We have intimacy issues. Educating Women On Emotional Abuse & Coercion Wendy: And I think it makes it harder, because my husband didn’t punch walls. If we got into an argument, he would shut down completely and keep it all in. And so it took me a while to realize that I had been abused. You know, there was gaslighting. He always minimized my feelings, because he didn’t think I should ever be angry about anything. It never dawned on me, I would have answered the same way. I would have said, no, I don’t think I’m being abused. Anne: We need to educate women about this type of abuse, so that women can have words for what’s happening to them. Many people discourage women from thinking their husband is abusive in this way. Because they’re worried about her reporting and then going through a very difficult legal situation. I don’t want anyone to think I am suggesting you report this. You can, if you would like, but the likelihood of him actually being prosecuted or pleading guilty is extremely remote. Learning About Coercive Control If this discussion makes people uncomfortable because they’re like, well, then you have to report. Nothing about this episode is about reporting it. You don’t need to report it. I think knowing what’s happened to you is helpful for healing. The most important thing is that you know what happened. And, that you know the truth. And that’s why it’s so important for women to have a place where they can talk about it. Or talk about when they realized their husband had been doing this to them for years and they didn’t know. The question of whether you’re going to report it or not doesn’t even have to come into the discussion. I created my workshop for women to know what strategic actions to take if they’re experiencing coercive control. Seeking Support & Healing Wendy: Finding somebody to talk to who is going to be supportive, that’s not going to say, “Well, you’re just making that up.” or “There’s no way, because he’s such a good guy.” Reaching out for support is helpful. Really, understanding what it is and what you’ve been through, and knowing that you’re not alone. I think those are the two biggest things that are helpful. Anne: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, your emotional and psychological safety. is our absolute top priority. Our coaches can help you process what you’ve been through and support you as you make your way to emotional safety. In whatever way that’s going to look like in your specific situation. Everybody’s journey looks different, and they’ll support you in what you decide. It’s just so important that when you go for help, you get it from a safe person. Wendy, thank you so much for contacting me. You are so brave, and you can talk about this difficult topic in such an unflinching way. It’s so important that we do. It’s one of the most important things to know about coercive control. And your example will help so many women. So thank you so much for the suggestion to talk about this and for being willing to share your story. I appreciate it so much. Wendy: Awesome, thanks for having me.

Have you thought to yourself, “He says I’m controlling but I’m not.” If so, he’s likely emotionally and psychologically abusive. Here are 3 things to know. There are 19 different types of emotional abuse. To see if he’s emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. 1. But What If I’m Actually Controlling? If a man is emotionally mean and wants to keep hurting someone, he might call her actions to feel safe “controlling” to trick her into stopping. This doesn’t mean you should stop looking for the truth or setting boundaries for your emotional safety. To learn about the most strategic ways to deal with his control, check out The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mfE5cABLp4 You’re not controlling if your desire is simply to keep yourself and your children safe and healthy. 2. Why Does He Say I’m Controlling? An abuser tricks people by lying to his victim and he says i’m controlling but i’m not. It works a lot, and others around him believe his lies. But it’s not controlling to state your opinion or ask another adult to do their share. Do you know what is controlling? Lying and manipulation. The truth is, his accusation is really an admission. He’s the one controlling the narrative through his deceitful communication. 3. His Friends and Family Say His Ex Was Crazy Controlling If a man tells you that his ex was controlling (and has manipulated his friends and family the same way), it’s likely he’s grooming you to not ask too many questions. He usually wants a woman to give him enough space to do secret things he knows are outside her boundaries, like pornography, soliciting prostitutes, or other harmful, abusive behavior. If someone tries to make you leave them alone because they’re hiding things, it could be a warning sign of emotional or mental abuse. They might also try to pressure you into doing things you don’t want to do. If He Says You’re Controlling, You Need Support At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand what’s really going on when he says things like this to create confusion. We’d love to support you in your journey to emotional safety. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more. Transcript: He Says I’m Controlling But I’m Not Anne: In marriage, what’s the difference between controlling and expecting reasonable behavior? If he says I’m controlling but I’m not, here are three signs that he’s actually saying this to maintain control. 1. He calls your boundaries controlling. When you refuse to participate in behavior that you think is unacceptable, whether it’s believing his lies or not asking him questions when you don’t know where he has been, he’s trying to control the way you perceive him. 2. If he’s lying. The purpose of lying is control. And so if he’s lying, he’s the one trying to control you, not the other way around. 3. When your desire is for equality and peace, and his desire is to do what he wants. So if he told you that his ex was controlling when you met, it’s likely he was grooming you to not ask too many questions. Because then, later, when he says ‘I’m controlling, but I’m not,’ he can flip the script and accuse you of being controlling whenever he’s not getting his way. That’s the crazy thing about controlling men. Most women married to men like this don’t want power over, payback or revenge. They just want reasonableness, like honesty and equality. Coercive Control 101: When he says I’m controlling but I’m not Anne: Today I’ll interview Dr. Emma Katz. Here’s a preview of what she’s going to talk about today: Dr. Katz: What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly dealing with the coercive controller. And they don’t want reasonableness or fairness, they want control. He says I’m controlling but I’m not because he wants to enjoy watching you suffer, to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. An entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? For most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Anne: Dr. Katz is a senior lecturer in criminology at Edgehill University in the U.K. Her work has shaped understandings of coercive control across the globe. Her book, Coercive Control in Children’s and Mother’s Lives by Oxford University Press is the first academic book to focus on children and coercive control. She brings her research to the public in an accessible and influential way on her platform, Decoding Coercive Control with Dr. Emma Katz, where she writes articles that are read by tens of thousands of people in more than 100 countries around the world. Welcome Dr. Katz. Dr. Katz: Thanks so much for having me. Definition of Coercive control Anne: Thank you for being here. Dr. Katz, let’s start with the definition of coercive control. Dr. Katz: Coercive control is when one person sets up a dynamic in a relationship of “do what I say, or else.” That’s it in a nutshell. To go into it in a bit more detail, it’s when one person is subjecting another to persistent and wide-ranging controlling behavior, controlling multiple aspects of their life. Even though he says I’m controlling but I’m not. And this goes on for a significant period of time, and the perpetrator makes it clear that if you don’t cooperate with them, if you don’t obey them, they’re going to make life very unpleasant, very difficult for you. And within that, there’s a whole range of different things that they’ll do to you if you are not cooperating, from physical violence to sexual violence, to psychological and emotional abuse. To isolating you, to draining you economically, to hurting your loved ones, and many forms of punishment that they’ll inflict on you, if they don’t think you’re cooperating enough with them, obedient enough to them. Anne: Sadly, listeners to this podcast understand this issue on a very personal level, including myself in terms of counter parenting, that I dealt with for eight years post-divorce. It was very, very difficult. Thank goodness I’m past that now. For our listeners, who are victims of their husband’s lying or their ex-husband’s lying, and he is lying a lot to control the narrative. You talk about the difference between that and say, a loving mom who might get angry with her kid for not doing his homework. Control that parents exert over children Anne: I’m just thinking of myself as a single mom. I have two teenage boys, and right now there’s a lot of, get your butt off the couch right now and do your homework right now. And their dad is so nice to them. Like the sticky sweet, super nice. But the way he really does try to control what they do, like actually undermining their homework, getting them not to take baseball, or dropping their instrument lessons. ‘Cause so many of our listeners have been accused. Dr. Katz: So firstly, certainly when we’re a parent, we need to have some control over our children. So, if someone needs to have some control over their children as a parent, that’s healthy and normal. Because obviously children don’t have the development to always make the healthiest and smartest choice. Sometimes they need some guidance on that. And on how to effectively contribute to the household. So as long as what the parent expects is reasonable and in the child’s best interests. That’s fine. Anne: Like going to bed. Dr. Katz: Going to bed, brushing their teeth. Anne: Doing their homework. Dr. Katz: Yeah, not eating junk food all the time, that sort of thing. And being nice to each other, treating each other in a reasonable, fair way. So then, let’s talk about a controlling person. He says I’m controlling but I’m not: Characteristics of A Controlling person Dr. Katz: They may have some controlling tendencies, but you shouldn’t be terrified of them, because if you’re terrified of them, they’re way more than controlling, they’re abusive. A controlling person, you may need to stand up to them quite firmly, and you may need to set some boundaries with them, but they shouldn’t respond by punishing you maliciously, making your life hell. Because again, if they’re punishing you for standing up to them, we’re getting way beyond controlling. We’re getting into abusive. So now let’s talk about coercive controllers. They are way beyond a person with some controlling tendencies, because they are driven to have a lot of control over multiple domains of your life. And they’re not doing it in your best interest, but rather because they want to undermine you. A coercive controller wants to chip away at their targets. We’ve heard expressions like chipping away at a person, death by a thousand cuts. That’s what a coercive controller is trying to do. They’re trying to basically take a person and turn them into a hollowed out puppet on a string who just exists to please and serve them. They view it as their right and entitlement to turn you into a kind of puppet on a string who will just exist to please and serve them and have no needs, rights, dreams or wishes of your own. That’s the difference between like healthy parenting and then being a controlling person. Reasonableness vs. Abuse: What it really means when he says I’m controlling but I’m not Dr. Katz: But you shouldn’t scare people with how controlling you are, and then being a coercive controller, which is highly abusive. Anne: And when he accuses you of being controlling, it’s not because you actually are, it’s because you’re not doing what he wants. He says I’m controlling, but I’m not, simply means he’s losing access to the compliance he expected. Dr. Katz: No, I’m sure they’re just setting reasonable boundaries. So let’s talk about the vast difference in intention between somebody who’s being coercively controlled and a coercive controller. So, somebody who’s being coercively controlled wants fairness. They want the person to behave in a reasonable way that a reasonable person would accept as reasonable. Obviously, it depends on who you are asking. Some people might have unreasonable ideas about how people should behave. So that might be tricky. Like if you’re not sure about it and ask your parents, but your parents aren’t reasonable. And then they say, “No, you sound like you’re being unreasonable.” But you can think about it and think, oh, okay, maybe my parents actually aren’t that unreasonable. Anne: An example with my son, it should not take two hours to empty the dishwasher. Dr. Katz: Yeah. Anne: That’s pretty reasonable. Dr. Katz: Reasonable, yeah. It shouldn’t take two hours to empty the dishwasher. Survivors want a restoration of reasonableness, When Both Care and have respect Dr. Katz: So fairness, we’re talking about, I put into the relationship, and so do you. I can discuss my worries constructively with you, and you can discuss your worries constructively with me. We both care about how each other feels. We both generally want the best for each other. Even when we’re having a big argument, we still respect each other as human beings. We still see that we’re human beings here who just fundamentally have dignity and rights. And we each have a level of respect for each other, even if we don’t like each other much in that moment. So, reasonableness, yeah. What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with this perpetrator, who obviously they may not be seeing as a perpetrator in that moment. It might be your husband or ex-husband, but they want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly having to deal with the coercive controller pushing and pushing and pushing them, and not doing anything reasonably. So, obviously they’re going to get upset, agitated, and frustrated about that, but that doesn’t mean they’re a bad person. They’re just dealing with a very unreasonable person who has no respect for them. And it’s hard to deal with someone like that. Now the coercive controller, they don’t want reasonableness. They don’t want fairness, they want control and want to enjoy watching you suffer. They want to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. Coercive Control is Domestic Abuse Dr. Katz: They don’t care about how people feel or the impacts of their behavior on the person, beyond being able to manipulate them to get what they want out of them. So an entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? Well, I think for most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Because a coercive controller is usually pretty convinced they’re in the right, and they wouldn’t even stop to self-reflect most of the time on whether they were doing anything wrong. Because they only see their own entitlement to control, and they don’t stick to any reasonable behavior perhaps agreed upon. Don’t blame yourself. These people are just some of the most difficult people on the planet to deal with. Coercive control is part of domestic abuse. And another term coined to try and describe it is intimate partner terrorism or ex-partner terrorism. You could also say, so it’s like they’re your own personal terrorist, trying to control you through fear, trying to control you through power games, trying to stop you from living the normal life that citizens in your community normally live. So when you hear something like “He says I’m controlling, but I’m not,” that’s exactly the type of upside-down dynamic they create. It’s very severe and serious behavior. So perpetrators have to get quite sneaky about what they’re doing. If they really acted as though they were their own dictator, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, just forever. Then they would lose a lot of their power to keep that going, because ultimately it would be so horrific to go through all the time that the victim survivors would just run away. Coercive controllers never take proper accountability: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: They would rather be homeless on the street than deal with it. So if they want to keep control of the victim survivor as long as possible. Particularly while the relationship’s still happening. So, they have to disguise what they’re doing by claiming they’re doing it out of kindness, out of protectiveness, out of care. I only do this because I love you. I only do this because I worry about you. I’m doing this in your best interests. You are not very good at doing that. I’m happy to take that burden off you and do that for you. I have to look out for you, et cetera, et cetera. So that it can often be disguised in these ways. And they’re very good at putting blame on the victim survivor, saying things like, “Well, I wouldn’t have reacted that way if you hadn’t been so dah, dah. dah.” So it’s always turning around and blaming the other person. They can never take proper accountability for what they’ve done. They can never just say, yes, that was my fault, and then shut up. Post-separation, they’re just on this mission to punish you as much as possible. For daring to have the strength and bravery to break free of them. Their sense of entitlement cannot bear that you’ve broken free of them. So they’re just on a mission to punish you post-separation. And they just wanna keep up that ability to punish you for as long as they can. And it’s horrific post-separation for victim survivors, because they’ve done what society now tells victim survivors to do and separated. What if the perpetrator won’t leave you alone Dr. Katz: That didn’t used to be the advice. The advice used to be stay in your marriage at all costs, and don’t you dare break up your family. Now, we tend to say, most of us, to victim survivors, the way to go is to separate. But then what if you do that and the perpetrator will not leave you alone? And they won’t leave you alone for five years, for 10 years, 15 years, and so on. We, as a society, have not grappled with that yet. We don’t want to grapple with it. And we don’t want to do anything to inconvenience our predominantly male perpetrators. Because if society wanted to inconvenience them, we would see that happening. We would see a much stronger response to what they do. But we see very little response to what they do. Victim survivors have a terrible difficulty getting any kind of response from the authorities post separation abuse. So it’s enormously difficult to endure and survive. Anne: It’s very interesting, because in some ways it looks like the same to an outsider. For example, many women who come on this podcast share their stories, including me. We wanted that reasonableness. And so insisting on it, or even fighting for it, not physically, but with a verbal, “Hey, we need to do this.” “It might seem to an outsider like we’re haranguing them or refusing to give up, the way coercive control is often misunderstood, and that’s how when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not, it looks reasonable to people who don’t understand what is happening. Abusers are always doing something for a reason Anne: But if the situation is inherently unfair, and if this situation is inherently nonsensical. And she’s trying to make sense of it, and she won’t let go of equality, fairness, or logic. And he wants her to let go of that, so he says I’m controlling but I’m not. From the outside, it looks like the same or almost exactly the same. And people cannot tell the difference. And I like to have people consider what is the aim of it. Like for example, exploitation. Many of these men just don’t want to pay child support, for example. And so because they don’t wanna pay child support, but they can’t technically do that. They’re like, well if I have to pay child support, then I’m going to make it as miserable as possible for her. And maybe someday she’ll just give up and not ask me for child support anymore. No one’s gonna say to the victim, “Hey, maybe let go of the child support.” Because she needs that money. And she’s also legally entitled to it. But he does not think that she is. And so there’s one thing to consider as victims in this scenario is what is their real intent. They’re making your life a living hell, because they don’t want to do something. They don’t wanna pay child support, they don’t wanna pay alimony, they don’t want their son to play baseball, because if their son plays baseball once a week or twice a week, they have to sit and watch this game that they don’t enjoy watching. And they would rather undermine it and tell him, you’re bad at baseball, baseball’s bad for you. Dr. Katz: Yeah, abusers are highly functional in what they’re doing. They’re always doing it for a reason. Lying is central for perpetrators: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: Yeah, and usually the way they do it is through lies. Rather than saying to the kid or the mom or whoever, I don’t enjoy watching my kids’ baseball games, so I’m not going to go. But yeah, shine on, do whatever. They lie and say, baseball’s not good for you. You don’t really wanna play baseball. Your mom is coercing you to play baseball. It’s all this other stuff. I always come back to the lying is the real problem. Because if they told the truth, I don’t want to pay child support, and if I have to, I’m going to wreak havoc on you. Then if they said that in court, then everyone would be like, okay. Dr. Katz: Absolutely right. Yeah. Anne: It’s the lies that are the problem, all the abuse is the problem too. But they just wouldn’t get very far in their abuse if they did not lie. Dr. Katz: You’re so right. They would not get far in their abuse if they did not lie. And lying is so central to what they do. I think we don’t talk enough about how perpetrators are, as you say, tremendous liars. They just lie all the time, and they construct a narrative based on lies, distortions, and twisting things. And in this narrative, they’re a good person, and they’re doing nothing wrong. Everyone else is crazy, unreasonable, and horrible to them. And as you say, they’re not admitting to what they’re doing. Imagine, people say, “Oh, you picked the wrong guy.” But imagine if they stood up on a first date and said, “My intention is to hollow you out, to enrich myself at your expense. When He says I’m controlling but I’m not: D.A.R.V.O. explained in real life Dr. Katz: So after 10 years with me, you would be very poor and have few economic assets, and I would be much richer and would’ve siphoned off your assets. That should been yours. Anne: Right, exploited you. Dr. Katz: Yeah, I’m going to exploit you for 10 years, yeah. I’m going to expect far more with you than I’m willing to give myself. My plan is to ensure that you never have a strong relationship with your children, because that would make you too happy, and I don’t want to see that. So if we have children together, I’m going to make sure to sabotage your relationship with your children as often as possible. Imagine if they made that speech on the first date, and that is their intention, and they’ve probably done it before. Then obviously everyone would get up and run for the hills, but they lie and disguise. So lying is so central to what they do. And also, we see this use of DARVO. So hopefully most of your listeners are familiar with this concept of DARVO: deny, attack, reverse victim and offender, D-A-R-V-O. Again, this lying is central to DARVO. The perpetrator will deny that they were abusive. Say, “Oh, I never did that.” Or, “I only did that because I was provoked.” And then they’ll turn around and try and attack the victim’s character so that people won’t find them credible anymore. And very often that’s along the lines of, she’s crazy. She’s my crazy, psycho ex. They attack the credibility of the victim Dr. Katz: She’s unreasonable. She’s got a mental health disorder. They’ll throw around all these sort of mental health labels. Like she’s got narcissistic personality disorder, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, et cetera. Even though she wouldn’t have been diagnosed with any of these things. And oh, she’s mean, she’s a really nasty person. Everyone hates her, etc. So they attack the credibility of the victim. So that people won’t take them seriously, won’t believe them, will have major doubts in their minds about their believability. And then they try and reverse victim and offender. So, I’m not the bad guy here, but she is. She’s the one who’s actually been horrible to me for all these years. And then a big long list of twists and distortions of things, or just outright lies of things that they think the victim survivor’s done. Meanwhile, constantly playing down what they’ve done. So by the time people hear all this DARVO narrative from perpetrators. Some people can see through it, but most of the time people don’t know what to believe, and they don’t know how to unpick all this. And what people usually do in response to DARVO is think, that sounds messy. It sounds like they were both horrible. So I’m just not going to get involved, and I’m not going to stand up for this victim survivor, and I’m not going to stand against this perpetrator. Because I can’t even tell who’s right and who’s wrong. So I’m just gonna walk away. And then when people do that, they leave the perpetrator with all the power. The victim has no one to support her Dr. Katz: And the victim survivor, with no one supporting them. And that power imbalance between them that the perpetrator’s been so clever as to build up over the years, there’s no one there challenging that. Because everyone’s been put off from getting involved by the DARVO. So that can often be the case. That can often be what ends up happening. It’s devastating to people. So one message I would always give people is to try and educate those around them on DARVO tactics. So when it happens, people will be more able to see through it. . But I think if we all have more awareness of how common DARVO tactics are, then they’ll be a little bit less effective. Anne: Yeah, one thing I try to do here at BTR and through our services is give women confidence. So often when women sense something’s wrong. But they don’t know that he’s lying, and no one else does either. They don’t recognize they’re a victim of his emotional and psychological abuse. No one else does, either. They may go to a couple therapist, or often sex addiction or pornography addiction recovery. That makes things even more complex and they get blamed even more. And they’re going because they need help. Most of the time it’s the victims who set these appointments. It’s women who wanna know what’s going on? How can I fix this? I would love for everyone listening to know that you know enough in your own heart and in your own mind, and it’s great to get validation. And hopefully you can get it from this podcast and from Dr. Katz and all the other wonderful domestic abuse advocates out there and feel that. Couple therapists or addiction therapists can’t identify the abuse: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: If you don’t know what’s going on, and go to a couple therapist or addiction therapist or some program, like a marriage intensive. They will not identify this for you. And rather than confirming what you already know, what you sense. The gaslighting that’s going to occur, and the DARVO will start to knock down your sense of confidence. And he keeps you in the dark longer when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. Dr. Katz: That’s so true. I wrote one of my Substack articles in February about how family therapy and coercive control is a match made in hell. And I would also say couples counseling, and anything like that. Because most therapists have had very little or indeed no training on coercive control as part of their degree they took in psychology. Or any kind of qualifications they did to enable them to practice counseling or psychology or whatever it’s that they’re doing. So it’s unlikely they have any knowledge of coercive control. And if they do, it may not be sufficient knowledge. It may not be from good sources. So they might think they know something about it, but what they know is maybe old fashioned stuff, maybe quite victim blaming. It’s just not good information to base practice upon in the current day. So yes, if you go to somebody wearing the hat of a professional, but they know nothing about coercive control. They can’t recognize it, can’t see that it’s happening right there in their office. They don’t have the training necessary to make sense of what they’re seeing. Then yes, that’s just going to leave the victim survivor thinking they were wrong to ever think this was a serious and abusive situation that their perpetrator was subjecting them to. The premise of couple therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship Dr. Katz: They’re just gonna walk out thinking, it sounds like maybe I’m to blame and maybe I can fix this. Maybe I need to compromise more, sacrifice more, and try harder. Because that’s what the therapist probably will be set up to suggest. So, couples therapists are not there to deal with abuse. They shouldn’t be seeing people where one person’s abusing the other. They really shouldn’t be doing that. The whole premise of couples therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship, and also that both partners are willing to deal with the problems. And that they both want to get to a healthier place, so it is not set up for coercive control situations at all. And the same with family therapy. The idea of family therapy is that everyone who’s going to that is contributing to the problem and everyone has a sort of genuine good intention to try and sort it out. And when you have an abuse perpetrator, that is not the case whatsoever. Anne: No, and if they’re lying they’ll go to couple therapy and they will say they are there because they want to improve the situation. Again, if they went in and said, “There’s no way I’m gonna change my tactics. I’m a liar and it works really good and I can exploit her all the time.” It doesn’t matter what proof you have. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got some checklist and you’re like, look at all these things on the checklist, you’re doing all these. They never will do that because they are inherently a liar. Couple therapy with an abuser can keep you stuck Anne: So in that session, they’re like, of course I’m here. Of course I wanna make this better, of course I’ll compromise. I will do this and this, and then I really need her to do this, this and this. And he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. He’s never gonna do the thing he just said he is gonna do, but the therapist is like, wow, he really wants to be here. He cares about his marriage. He wants to make this work. They don’t have the frame of reference to understand that he is literally lying to her and the therapist. So, it’s a very dangerous situation when she also does not know. Luckily, I’ve had a few people tell me they listened to my podcast. They weren’t sure, but in the back of their mind they were thinking, “Okay, He says I’m controlling but I’m not. And she said it’s bad, but I don’t really know.” Thank goodness, because they had that heads up, they could see what was going on. Whereas other women who don’t know what’s happening and the therapist doesn’t know what’s happening. Sometimes get stuck in that gaslighting world for five years, 10 years, 20 years of this type of couple therapy, until they realize he’s been lying the entire time. Dr. Katz: That’s so true. I think that going to therapy with your abuser can keep you stuck for another five or 10 years. It can be devastating. It may keep you stuck forever. You may never recover from it. Hopefully, that’s infrequently the case. But for some people, we know they never escape. And they’re with that perpetrator till the day they die. women are profoundly impacted by coercive control: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: Yeah, and I think a lot of times it’s ’cause they don’t know. I wanna credit all women for doing that, because they believe couple therapy will improve it, because everybody says that. It’s common advice. So they’re trying to get help. They are trying to improve their situation. They’re not dumb, they’re smart. That’s what a smart person does. A smart person knows they’re in over their head, and a smart person goes for help. The problem is that they don’t say I am an abuse victim, ’cause they don’t know. The therapist also does not identify it, and that is not the victim’s fault. Dr. Katz: Especially if the perpetrator’s clever to never be physically violent. Most perpetrators are intimidating. They shout in your face, they glare at you. They might kick the furniture, they might throw objects around, but not actually at you. But they send you the message, you better cooperate with me, or else next time I’ll be kicking you, not this sofa. But if they don’t actually cross the line into attacking you, then a lot of women are uncomfortable labeling that abuse. Because we’ve been taught for so long that abuse is violence, black eyes, broken bones. And abuse needs that physical element to be real. And that’s not the case at all. We see that women are just as profoundly impacted by non-physical coercive control. That is really severe, and limits their life to a great extent. We’re seeing these women with the same kinds of distress and trauma as those who’ve been physically hurt. Women do their best with the information they have Dr. Katz: So it’s as you say, women who are going through this, I would never ever say they were dumb. On the contrary, they’re smart. They’re doing the best they can with the knowledge they have and the pieces of the puzzle they can see. They’re not a mind reader. They can’t tell what their perpetrator is actually thinking. So they do their best with the information they have. Meanwhile, he says I’m controlling but I’m not. I’m adamant that victim survivors are simply ordinary people who had the misfortune to meet a perpetrator and maybe to meet more than one perpetrator, because for lots of people, this happens more than once in their lifetime. And that’s not because there was something wrong with them, but just because there are an extraordinarily high number of abusers out there. Our society is frankly flooded with them. For example, one in five men in America admits physically attacking their partner or wife. Research and surveys have found that one third of college men would have sex with a woman against her will if nobody found out, and there wouldn’t be any consequences for them. So that’s one third of our college men who say yes. They would actually be happy to rape a woman if they could get away with it. One third of college men would coerce women Dr. Katz: Researchers didn’t use the word rape, because that’s a very particular word that makes people have a very particular reaction. But they said sex against a woman’s will, which is rape. And a third of them said, yes, they’d be happy to do that if they could get away with it. if you’ve had the misfortune to be in a marriage with one, that’s not because there was something particularly wrong with you. You were just an ordinary person who had the misfortune to meet one of these abusers. Anne: Yeah, in my opinion, lying is the most common type of sexual coercion. They know that if they said, “I’m gonna take you on this date, I’m gonna fake I like everything you like, I’m gonna look you in the eyes. I’m gonna give you compliments. I only want to have sex with you, and then I never wanna see you again.” Then when he gets “consent.” She says yes to sex under the guise of him actually liking her. That is sexual coercion. She never hears from him again, and it’s like that was confusing. We hit it off. He seemed to like me. We had everything in common. I would submit that in many of those cases it was that he was just mirroring, grooming, lying to get you to say yes. Thinking the yes means it’s okay. If you say yes, then win-win, right? It’s what everybody wanted. It’s not wrong if she says yes, kind of an idea. And it’s very wrong, and it’s sexual coercion, which is rape, essentially. Dr. Katz: Yes, there are all sorts of circumstances in which people can say yes, and it’s valid or invalid. When someone is lying to you it’s not a valid yes: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: So, if you’re saying yes, because you have the genuine information about what’s going on, and you’re saying yes of your own free will because you are enthusiastic about what’s gonna happen. And if you’re gonna participate in that with enthusiasm, then that’s a valid yes. But if you don’t have all the information, if someone’s lying to you and deceiving you, and so you’re actually acting on false information with your, “Yes.” Your yes is coming from a place where you don’t understand the full picture of what’s going on, then I don’t think that’s a valid yes. Anne: No matter how enthusiastic she is. Because she might be extremely enthusiastic based on his lies. But that doesn’t mean anything. Dr. Katz: No, like you say, it needs to be based on correct, truthful information to be valid. We might be enthusiastic about signing a contract for a new phone, because we think we know what this contract says. But if we actually read the contract and found it was full of lies, something very different’s gonna happen. And we’re going to be robbed of our money, given a bad deal, and ripped off for this phone. Then obviously, our enthusiasm would not have been there had we known that. Anne: Right. Dr. Katz: And also, to give a valid yes, you need to be comfortable to say no. If you’re scared of saying no, that’s coercive Dr. Katz: If you’re in any way scared of saying no. If saying no will lead to hours and hours of sulking, guilt tripping, pushing, asking you over and over again, trying to turn your no into a yes. Then if it’s in those sorts of circumstances, you don’t have the option to say no easily. So a lot of the time people will say yes, because they know that saying no is too hard. There’s too much pushback. So they say yes. But if they really had a free choice, they wouldn’t be saying yes. And for me, the yes is invalid, because you didn’t have the proper choice. Similarly with sexual coercion, if you really wanted to say no, but you couldn’t because the pushback would be so bad, then it’s not a proper yes. And then it is rape, or sexual assault, depending on what then happens. I think that’s a tough conversation. Anne: Yeah, I think there’s another element to this, which is how abusers gaslight victims & advocates. That is, maybe even if he’s not pressuring her, if she thinks it’s my duty as a wife to have sex. It’s often maybe a faith that might tell her, “You need to submit to your husband’s sexual desires.” Or maybe someone who’s like, “If he doesn’t have sex regularly, he’ll maybe go have an affair.” Or, “He’ll have sex with someone else.” Or something like that. So even if he’s pressing her and he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. If she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. If he chooses to have an affair, that has nothing to do with you saying no Anne: But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. Even if he’s not pressing her to do it, if she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. If you don’t wanna have sex for any reason, it doesn’t even matter. If he chooses to use porn or have an affair, that literally has nothing to do with you saying no, because you didn’t wanna have sex. But this, it’s your fault that he did this thing that hurt you when you said no. So many women in our community are told like, “Well, what did you think was gonna happen if you didn’t wanna have sex with him? Of course, he was gonna go use porn or solicit a prostitute or have an affair or whatever.” Not realizing that what he does is his choice completely independently. This doesn’t happen that often. ‘Cause I, I don’t interact with single men very much, but if I do and they say something like, “Oh, my ex-wife, she was just frigid and she wouldn’t give me sex.” I always say, “Oh, I am so glad. That’s great. ‘Cause women should never have sex when they don’t want to.I’m glad you were married to such an awesome person.” he says i’m controlling but i’m not: I’m the terrible person when I refuse Anne: And they literally have no idea what to say. They’re like, I don’t even know how to react. Dr. Katz: That’s awesome. I wish I could be there to see that when they react that way. Because I think this is a related point. Which is, what is wrong with men who are having sex with women who are not enthusiastic about what’s happening? That is so disgusting. Why would you want to be intimate with another person’s body in that way? When they’re just lying there and thinking when it’s going to be over. You know that even if they’re putting up an act to seem enthusiastic. But you just coerce that act out of them, because before you’ve complained, they’re just lying there. So that you pressured them to give an appearance of enthusiasm. When you know they’re not enthusiastic genuinely. What is wrong with people who want to have sex under those circumstances? I will never understand that, and I find it so gross and awful. Anne: I remember telling my ex, ’cause sex with him was just miserable. And I told people about it, and that made me the terrible person, because I was like, “Yeah, sex with him stinks.” And that really hurt his feelings. And I was like, “It’s not that fun.” I didn’t realize what was going on. So I was kind of flippant about stuff. But I was very open about it. Do all of the reasons or excuses make sense? Anne: So just to skip ahead for a minute, when I realized it was abuse, no one took me seriously because I was so open about everything. They were like, “Well, you can’t be an abuse victim because you’re not mousy or quiet or anything.” But I told him once, “Do you think I could just read a book? Do you think I could maybe prop it open and you could be having sex, but I could be reading.” And I was a little bit joking, but not really. And instead of being like, wow, what’s going on? I don’t remember what he said, but he didn’t respond in a way that made me feel like he really would care that much if I was reading. And I think that’s the point you’re getting at. Is like what? Like that is so crazy. The conversations that women in this situation have. Whether it be about sex or about him yelling or weeding or whatever. You think about the conversations and if women are still in it and maybe they’re going to couple therapy. Maybe someone is saying, “Well, let’s get to the heart of his childhood trauma.” And maybe why he said this or something. But if you can take just one step back or have a little bit of an objective point of view and realize like, this is crazy pants. Anyway, thinking about that, it’s important as women listen to think, wait a minute. All these reasons or excuses, do they even make sense when he says I’m controlling but I’m not? Dr. Katz: It’s so hard to see it when you’re in proximity. Perspective from depersonalizing the situation Dr. Katz: Maybe something that might be helpful is to imagine this conversation among hypothetical friends you might make up in your head. And run this conversation. My hypothetical friends who are married, they had this conversation that mirrored the conversation I’ve just had with my partner or husband. What would I make of this if this was happening to other people? What would that mean if somebody said this? So, what does that say about them as a person, where they’re at, and what their mental state is? And if someone else says this, how would I understand that if it was not me, but someone else? And just to try and take that kind of, like you say, that step back, depersonalize it a little bit, that can be useful. I think I’ll reiterate that. The people being abused have done nothing wrong. And I don’t think there’s anything abnormal about them. Sometimes we hear the most appallingly victim blaming things, even from people who say, “Oh, I’m not victim blaming.” And he says I’m controlling but I’m not. People say you need to take accountability for your part in the abuse. No, you don’t. You were looking for a normal, healthy, loving relationship, and you got served a load of lies and loads of abuse. And nothing to do with you. It’s not your fault, you don’t need to take accountability for any of that. Human nature binds us. So for most of us, we’re bound by the messages that we get from our society. women are encouraged by society to be kind: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: It will take us a long time to figure out that we’re being abused because we don’t want to think that’s happening to us. We don’t want to think that particular script is suddenly running in our lives. We don’t want to reinterpret a situation that we thought we understood through the lens of, well, maybe this is abuse, because that’s tough. Most people, understandably, don’t want to do that. So it takes people a long time to get to that place. That’s human nature, and that’s the way our society is set up. People are not encouraged to make that assumption quickly, “Oh, this is abuse.” They’re encouraged to be kind and considerate, to have empathy even if your husband has no empathy, and to be self-sacrificing, and to try and make things work. Especially women are encouraged to be like that, and there’s nothing to be ashamed of or to blame yourself for if it took a long time to get to that place. You’re not alone, because that’s what happens to pretty much everyone. I just think people say things like, “Oh, you must have attracted the abuser into your life,” or “you teach people how to treat you.” Or he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. And I think those things are horribly victim blaming statements. And I reject them completely. I think that, as I say, we’re all doing our best here in a society that is pretty much flooded with abusive people. There are far too many of them. They’re not one in a hundred, they’re perhaps one in two, one in three, one in four. There are many abusive people out there, especially unfortunately, men willing to be abusive to women. Obviously, it can happen the other way around, but coercive control is a male dominated crime. Coercive control is a crime in the UK Dr. Katz: I’m speaking to you from the UK, where we have made coercive control a crime. I think that is the case in a handful of American states and a couple of Australian states. It’s patchy, in a lot of places it’s not a crime yet. But I see it as a crime. I just wanna say all that. I think victims and survivors really deserve so much more credit than they’re given. Like you say, people are often very negative about victim survivors. Actually, you’re just a completely ordinary person who’s had to survive something really horrific. And anyone who survived that I think is doing amazing. Even if you’re only hanging on by your fingernails, even if you feel like you’re only surviving by a very thin margin, the fact that you are still surviving in any circumstances in my book means you are awesome. Anne: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Katz. I really appreciate your work, and it’s so wonderful to meet another woman in this fight to protect victims and help them when he says I’m controlling but I’m not. So thank you so much. Dr. Katz: Ah, well, thanks so much for having me on. It’s a pleasure. Thank you.

You’re not wrong for wanting things to be better. If you’re searching for a ‘prayer for my husband’ because you’ve been told that if you have enough faith, you can change him, you’re not alone. But here’s what most people don’t tell you… 5 THINGS TO CONSIDER AS YOU FIND A ‘PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND’ TO HELP HIM CHANGE 1. You’re Faith is Enough There’s something many faithful women are never told.The problem isn’t your faith. The problem is how your strong and incredible faith is being used, by people or systems, to confuse you instead of help you feel the love God has for you. 2. Prayer is Always Good, and God Loves YOUGod hears your prayers. He wants YOU to be emotionally safe and have a peaceful home. He may be leading you to see that this might not be possible if your husband is lying and refusing to follow the principles if he’s only pretending to believe. 3. The Harmful Message Behind “Pray Harder”When spiritual leaders or loved ones say, “Just have more faith” or “You’re not a victim, you’re a co-creator”, it’s spiritual bypass. It minimizes real harm and leaves you powerless. The interview below will cover why this is so harmful. 4. You’re allowed to be angry.Your anger about your husband’s mistreatment of you isn’t a lack of faith. It’s likely God’s way of warning you of danger. 5. God Hasn’t Abandoned YouIf you feel like God isn’t answering your prayers for your husband to change, it might be because your husband doesn’t want to change, but he’s lying to you about it. That means he’s lying to God too. Your husband may be blocking you from feeling God’s love for YOU. If you have heard this kind of messaging and need help getting out of the fog, my workshop will help you determine if you’re husband is lying about his faith in God to keep you from knowing his true intentions. Transcript: What You Need To Know WHEN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND DOESN’T CHANGE ANYTHING Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s podcast. Her name is Tracy, and she is a passionate advocate for betrayed wives. Discovering her husband’s addiction set her on a course of education about betrayal trauma, abuse, spirituality, and healing. Tracy is a devoted mother of four children, a compassionate friend, and an avid runner. Mountains and lakes are her happy place. Mountains and lakes are also my happy place, so we have that in common. We’re going to start by talking about spiritual bypass. One of the most common ways it shows up is when abusers—sometimes supported by clergy or even therapists—frame the solution as simply offering prayer for my husband to change. That’s why there are so many effects of spiritual abuse as well. PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND WHEN I DIDN’T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO Tracy: Absolutely. I’ll just give an example for myself. So my first D-Day was a month after I married. It was very traumatic, very, very traumatic. I didn’t know that I was in trauma. I didn’t know anything about trauma. There was so much I didn’t know. I didn’t have any support system or any real education. So basically, all I knew was that I was in so much pain, in such a place of darkness. The only way out, it took me two or three days, I don’t remember. Truly being in this dark, dark pit before I realized the only way out was God. And so I went to God in prayer and said, I cannot keep feeling this. I felt like it was going to kill me. Thinking, “I need to forgive my husband, but don’t know how to forgive him?” I am incapable of forgiving him, but I want to forgive him. And I know you can help me immediately. The darkness lifts, and I fill up with incredible comfort, warmth and peace. Now, I wasn’t healed from trauma. Of course, I didn’t understand trauma or what it meant to thoroughly heal from trauma. Understanding HOW Prayer for My Husband BECAME SPIRITUAL BYPASSING Tracy: Here’s where prayer for my husband got tricky. While it worked for me at that time and helped me, ultimately it became a form of spiritual bypassing and it kept me stuck in the trauma. It didn’t help me to better understand it or to come to a better understanding of my situation. I want to compare that now to my second D-Day, about 15 years in. I found out that this was going on my entire marriage regularly. That obviously my husband had been lying constantly about it, and hiding it. Then all those pieces start to fit together. That explains so much of my experience in this marriage that I did not understand. That happened on a Sunday night, I still remember it late at night. We were in bed talking. And as he began to disclose the reality, my situation started to descend upon me, as I came to terms with that. I didn’t sleep that night. I think I fell asleep at 6 a.m. and slept for one hour. And I said, I will not do this again. Because I realized I’d only been through one big cycle of this. I could see that handling it the way I did the first time wasn’t going to cut it. All that was going to do was set me up for more D-Days, and more D-Days, and more D-Days. And so my whole approach to healing was different than that first time. This was not going to be an event or an arrival. This was going to be a long process. I was going to let myself feel angry for as long as I needed to feel angry. WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT Prayer for My Husband: the Second D-Day Reality Check Tracy: You know, it’s interesting because I felt more betrayed by God after the first D-Day than the second. I don’t know what it was, but something after that second D Day, I instinctively knew some truths right away. And one of them was that this isn’t God. God did not betray me here. My husband did. And I realized that many things started fitting into place quickly. One of those was God was there for me all along. The lesson I learned was actually good and true. From the first experience, God is real. He was warning me. After that first D-day, prayer for my husband became a constant in my life. I would pray to know if my husband was honest with me or if my husband’s lying to me. And I always thought that since I could never find evidence, or my husband would never admit anything, I guess that meant he was telling me the truth because God wasn’t putting something in my lap, right? THE IMPACT OF DECEPTION ON MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD Tracy: Like throwing the evidence out in front of me. But in reality, I knew in my gut that something was wrong for years. And I knew after that second D-day, God was talking to me all along. It’s not God’s fault. It’s my husband’s fault. My husband interfered with my relationship with God. I was a spiritual person before I married. I came to my spirituality as a kid. And strengthened it as a youth and that was always a strong point for me. It was strange for me that after I married my spirituality started to decline. And I started to feel more distant from God. And I couldn’t figure out why. Because I was doing all of the same things I’d always done. My heart turned towards God. I wanted that relationship, but I couldn’t figure out why I was feeling so distant. And I would come up with reasons. Well, maybe it’s because I’ve had kids now and I don’t have the time to pray the same way I used to. I don’t have the time to spend as much time in the scriptures as I used to. So I guess I’m not prioritizing right. Because motherhood is difficult, but that wasn’t the reason. Prayer for MY Husband BEFORE MARRIAGE: When Something FeLT Off Tracy: I was careful and cautious about marrying, and I was very prayerful about it. I studied the subject and ultimately I decided, okay, I love this guy. No, I’ve got to take a leap of faith. So, you know, I said, yes. Well, I started to feel uneasy during our engagement, like something was off. There were various things that happened in a relatively short period during our engagement. That really moved me to confront my husband and ask if he had ever had any issues with pornography. She was also feeling kind of uneasy. We were like, is this normal? Is this just like engagement jitters? But we didn’t want to be like that crazy girl who likes to give back the ring, right? And changes her mind and goes back and forth. And so we made a pact with each other, me and my friend. That if we started to feel that uneasiness, we wouldn’t act on it unless it stayed with us for more than 24 hours. Because it might just come and go, the butterflies. I also prayed about that. I said to God, I understand that this might be normal feelings of anxiety, so I’m not going to take them seriously unless they stay with me for more than 24 hours. At one point, they did stay with me more than 24 hours. But still, I didn’t have any reason why something should be off. I didn’t have anything specific to point to. And he looked me in the eye and he said, no, never. And I may have asked one follow up question. He maintained, no, never. I didn’t push it. I just accepted his answer, but I still had these feelings of uneasiness. My best friend, at the time, was also engaged. When Others’ Advice Overrides Intuition and Prayer for my Husband Tracy: So I went to my Dad, who I love and is a wonderful, wonderful man, full of lots of goodness and wisdom. But, he basically just talked me out of my feelings. And he convinced me that I was being silly and too emotional. He said, “Your fiance is a great guy.” He’s got great career ambitions. He’s going to take good care of you. And he loves you. There’s no reason not to marry him. Spiritual bypass again. After, I found out a month into marriage. Which, the way I found out, is because my husband lost his job. He was caught using it at work. It was awful. But I did briefly feel betrayed by God. I was like, I prayed about this, I asked about this. But again, through spiritual bypass, I let go of all those feelings. Well, after my second D-Day, 15 years in, when I tried to put all the pieces back together and make sense of it. I realized God answered my prayer for my husband. Trusting God When THE Answers TO PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND ChangeD Tracy: I knew in my gut that something was off. I can trust my gut. And I can trust God. I realize my husband is the one lying to me. My Dad talked me out of my feelings when I went to him, saying I feel like something is off. I’m nervous. I’ve never had to work through a intense or long lasting feeling of betrayal by God. I’ve realized he’s been with me. It’s people getting in the way. I want to add one quick thing I would encourage women to consider is that sometimes we may get an answer, right? Maybe, this was not my experience. I did not get a definitive, yes, marry this guy. That was not my experience in prayer for my husband. But some women I have talked to say they have had that experience. And so they feel betrayed when they find out. That’s understandable. Like, sometimes we can get an answer to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the answer for the rest of our lives. Things can change. People can still make choices that change circumstances. I like to think about life as not something totally planned out. Where God is pulling these puppet strings. But rather, those change-your-ending books. Endings CAN Change & God Doesn’t Want Abuse Tracy: I don’t know if you ever had any of those. But you would start to read the story, and then there was a choice that you would have to make. Then depending on that choice, you would skip to a certain point in the book. And then you’d come to another choice. So depending on the choices made, the ending of the story would change. I can pray about something and get an answer that is good for me right now. But tomorrow, my husband can make a choice that changes circumstances, and the answer to prayer for my husband may change. Does that make sense? Anne: It does. Because many women think back to the answer to their prayers and think, but I’m supposed to be with him. Instead of saying, I need to set this boundary, because I’m not safe. They think God wants me to be tolerate abuse. God never wants you to be abused, ever. So if you’re trying to sort that out. I’m telling you here, that God does not want you to be abused regardless of what answers you had from prayers in the past. Anne: For me, I never asked whether I should marry my ex-husband. But I definitely felt like it was the logical right decision, which I made happily. And now looking back, I can see that my life’s work would not be possible without him. He introduced me to everything I needed to know, to run Betrayal Trauma Recovery and to continue to run BTR. So I’m actually super grateful for the experiences. Because I would never do what I do now without the experiences he gave me. Which were all horrific, but also now I have a PhD in evil. SPIRITUAL PERFORMANCE V. REAL CHANGE Anne: Let’s talk about how prayer for my husband is problematic when a man exhibiting abusive behaviors. Tracy: So my husband, leading up to that second big D-Day, threw himself into spirituality. He was becoming involved in our church community, very service oriented. And was reading the scriptures for like a certain amount of time every day. He was, on his commutes to work. He was listening to sermons and keeping track in his little calendar journal, of acting out points. And he convinced himself that this was all serving him well. Because he had longer periods of abstinence between acting out events than ever before in his life. He was going a whole two weeks between acting out, for a period of months. And he was convincing himself, because he was doing all these things, that he was progressing. But did they actually help him progress? No. He fooled himself into thinking he was making progress. But he still lived in lies, secrecy, and abusing me. See, he told himself, no, this is good. Because I will tell what’s been going on after I’ve like six months or a year of sobriety under my belt. And it will be this awesome thing, and she’ll be so excited for me. But the thing is, he was just spiritual bypassing me and keeping me stuck in abuse. PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND AND A False Sense Of Recovery Tracy: In about the period of one to two years post that second D-Day, He was doing all of the right things on paper for recovery. He’d done a formal disclosure. He had gone to a 12-step group, and was still going to it. He’d done the repentance process through our ecclesiastical leader. He was doing all of these right things, but that was just it. He thought that he was done. Like, that’s all taken care of, so can we just put a bow on it and lock it up in the closet and never talk about it again? So addicts can even use “working recovery” as a form of spiritual bypass. Where they convince themselves that they’re doing so great, but they’re really not. Anne: A lot of women are manipulated to ask, “Is he in recovery?” Because that answer can be manipulated to be yes with box checking. So victims are like, he’s in recovery because he goes to his weekly 12-step meeting and he’s going to therapy every week, but then you’re not safe yet. Instead of setting a boundary immediately and saying, okay, I need to get to safety now. And then watch from a safe distance to see if these abusive behaviors stop. I’m still in prayer for my husband and hoping that they’ll stop sometime in the future. Tracy: Yeah, when we’re in that terrible trauma and we just want relief. It’s easy to latch on to the idea of there’s a cure or a fix or a place of arrival. Well, once my husband gets to this place, like this many years of recovery or whatever, then we’ll be good. This really will be all behind us. WHEN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND IS USED TO DISMISS ACCOUNTABILITY Tracy: When I think about am I safe, it’s am I safe now? Am I safe to say, engage in this conversation? My question is not, am I safe to recommit to my husband that we’re going to be together forever, and divorce is never on the table? No, it’s am I safe right now to continue engaging in the relationship the way that I am right now? Anne: Yeah, that makes much more sense. Figuring out if you should stay together after infidelity isn’t necessarily the most important thing. So let’s talk about some other examples. A man exhibiting abusive behaviors may use to manipulate his victim, in terms of spiritual bypass. It might be, “I used the atonement, Jesus took away my sins. What, you don’t believe in Jesus?” They’re imposing what seems to be their devotion to their religious beliefs into prayer for my husband as a legitimate solution to abuse. In this case is simply taking the name of God in vain. Tracy: Well, that’s spiritual abuse. Why haven’t you forgiven yet? Can’t you move on? Why are you being so un-Christ like? I mean, it’s just straight up spiritual abuse. The day after my last D-Day, I was expressing how much pain I was in. He looked at me and said, I can’t tolerate this cruelty and walked away from me. Calling me cruel, suggesting that somehow I’m devoid of compassion, so I’m falling short of some spiritual standard. Me expressing my pain is actually a good healthy thing for me to be doing. It doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate. WHEN SPIRITUAL LEADERS’ ADVICE EnabLES Abuse Tracy: And this can happen with ecclesiastical leaders as well, both for the abuser and the victim. Bishops or pastors who tell men, well, you just need to pray this away. And they tell wives to pray harder. Or you need to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and then that will give you strength to overcome this. Like, why haven’t you forgiven yet? You just need to forgive. Anne: As if the forgiveness is the problem rather than the ongoing abuse. Tracy: And that’s why we need to separate ourselves to a degree or to several degrees. To get a level of safety, but asking someone who is literally living in abuse. And being currently and continually harmed to just forgive as if that’s going to make them not be affected by the abuse. FORMS OF VICTIM BLAMING IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: New Age teachings can go wrong too. It’s the same teaching. What you just said, the way we create our own reality, is a form of victim blaming. There is the teaching that everything I feel or experience originates with my own thoughts, so that I am creating my feelings with my thoughts and prayer for my husband. That nothing is happening to us from the outside. That can be very victim blaming, and victim blaming is very dangerous because that will make it more difficult for them to find safety and heal. So these are some common things you might hear. It happened for a reason. Nobody can hurt you without your consent. I wonder why you created this experience. It’s just your karma. There are no accidents, no victims. There are no mistakes. Don’t look back. What’s done is done. Don’t be a victim. Your feelings are an illusion. Be strong. Debunking THE MYTH “We Create Our Own Reality” THROUGH PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: We create our own reality, so you shouldn’t do that. You should not write or think about something so negative, or else you will draw negative things into your life. The faulty thinking is that somehow if our belief is strong enough, if prayer for my husband is good enough, if our energy is high enough, like our vibration is high enough. Then we will only attract good things, and we can somehow avoid attracting negative things that will bring us down. That’s magical thinking, because we exist within these human systems. And these natural systems that we don’t have control over everything within those systems. We can have the most positive thoughts, be kind, and take all kinds of precautions for our safety, and still be deceived, or still be victimized in another way. Trauma symptoms are not the result of negative thoughts. New Age People think it happens like this. You have a negative thought, it leads to negative feelings and perceptions, which leads to bad things happening. But if I had been more skeptical and thought about negative potential consequences. It can help us do things within our power to help us stay safe. Anne: This would be like if you feel anger, that’s a negative emotion, so you’re going to draw more anger to you. An idea like that. Rather than realizing anger is a gift to us that can help us take action to keep us safe. Gratitude Is Not The Cure-All For Abuse: Understanding The Meaning Tracy: Absolutely. That’s at the core, recognizing we have great power within our humanity and within ourselves. There’s so much light within us, and if we tap into that, there’s so much empowerment there. And that’s great, but that we also have limitations. And so with spiritual bypass, like prayer for my husband, with this new age bypass especially, there’s this emphasis on we can transcend the human experience, basically. Learning to disassociate and fooling ourselves into believing that’s transcendence. That we’re beyond pain. But that’s not the point. We’re not meant to transcend the human experience. Anne: It reminds me of a lunch with a gratitude coach. she wants to partner with BTR and at this lunch, she said, “If you can be super grateful, then any experience you go through is beneficial to you, useful to you. And I was like, that’s not helpful women stuck in this abusive situation, and all they’re trying to do is be grateful for their situation. And what it’s teaching them, rather than actually getting to safety. So I told her this would never be a good fit for my audience. Although it’s good when you’re in trauma to see the things worth being grateful for. You know, y I’m grateful that I have food today. I’m grateful that I don’t have to sleep on the street. I’m grateful that I have a blanket that I enjoy. You don’t have to say, I’m so grateful to be in this abusive situation. Tracy: No. No, you don’t. In fact, there’s power in recognizing that you’re not grateful to be in that situation. THE Danger OF TOXIC POSITIVITY IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: This is a common thing, is this toxic positivity, which is the excessive or ineffective overgeneralization of a happy and optimistic state all the time. Denial, minimization, and invalidation of genuine emotional human experience. So, that would manifest as hiding what we feel behind a positive front. Dismissing my emotions, feeling guilty for the negative emotions I feel, only positive prayer for my husband, and minimizing other people’s experiences. Trying to distract them from what they’re feeling, encouraging ourselves or others to reframe their experience. Which, that’s not always a bad thing. Sometimes that can be very helpful, but we have to be mindful of timing. And then also shaming others for feeling negative emotions. When I was in serious trauma. I just found out about everything that had been going on in my marriage for 15 years a month before. So something triggers me, and I cry, and I left the room because I was with family. I was with extended family, my parents, and a sister and, you know, her family, and it was embarrassing. I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, so I left the room. But I could not stop crying, just sobbing. And my Mom followed me, and she said, “You know Tracy, you just need to put a smile on your face for the sake of your children.” And that was not helpful. The Need For Safety & Stability Tracy: So now I’m a bad mom because I’m crying in front of my children? And I had no control over that trigger in that moment. The trauma was too fresh. It was too recent. Not only was it not helpful, it was also very shaming. Also, she told me in the same conversation, “You just need to put the past in the past and look to the future in prayer for your husband”. Anne: Let’s skip right to, Oh, put on your happy, positive attitude about it and everything will be okay. But if you keep crying, then it’s for sure not going to be okay. But that is another way of telling a victim it’s her fault. A month after you don’t know if it really is in the past. Tracy: You’re still living it. Yeah, I was still not safe. She wanted me to skip healing. She wanted me to pretend nothing was wrong. Whereas what I needed was safety and stability. And after I’d found safety and stability, I need to go through the long, messy process of grieving to go back to the past. And acknowledge it, validate it and feel what we need to feel. Pressure To Move On IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND We have this societal intolerance, this cultural intolerance for feelings of helplessness and loss of control, which leads to victim blaming. People who have an inability to tolerate their own difficult emotions are not capable of tolerating the pain and suffering in others. So, they’re impatient for us to just move on, or just pretend everything’s fine. Victims remind us of our own vulnerability. If she was victimized, I could be victimized, and that’s scary. So I pretend she wasn’t victimized, she just made a bad choice, or she just put herself in a bad situation. And so if I cannot make that same bad choice or put myself in that situation like she did, I won’t have to feel helpless. Victim Blaming & Self-Blame Tracy: Victim blaming is a convenient way to avoid taking responsibility for our own actions if we have played a part. So often, abusers will do this, or people who have contributed to secondary trauma, exacerbated the trauma. They’ll continue to blame the victim because it’s a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own part and the victim’s pain or injuries. And then also that there’s self-blame that happens oftentimes. Where we as victims desiring a sense of control, blame ourselves. Because then we’re like, well, if I had just done this, then that wouldn’t have happened. So, if I can change the way that I am or the things that I do going forward, then this won’t happen to me again. And we see this oftentimes, I think, in a betrayal trauma community. They’re safety seeking behaviors, essentially. It’s, if I am just the perfect wife in all of these different ways, then he won’t betray me again. Anne: In some 12-step circles, women are told you have to keep coming to 12-step meetings for the rest of your life or this will happen to you again. Tracy: Yeah, as if doing that has any bearing whatsoever on his choices. Like it doesn’t. Anne: I think it’s ironic because they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll be like, you have no control over him, but this will happen to you again if you don’t keep coming to meetings the rest of your life. I’m like, what? Tracy: It doesn’t make sense. Like, you can’t have all of these things be absolutes at the same time. Perception Vs. Reality Anne: Rather than thinking, how can I change my inner thoughts so that I can change reality, I think if victims are most interested in truth. What is the truth? In our case, what we’ve been perceiving incorrectly is that we’re in a relationship with a really good guy, who has a few small problems rather than the reality that he is an abusive person. Is it true? Regardless of how he looks at church, regardless of how good of a provider he is, are these behaviors that I’m experiencing abuse? Tracy: Yes, exactly. Positive Thinking As A Form Of Spiritual Bypass Tracy: More important than positive thinking. Because while positive thinking can be helpful sometimes, it can keep us in dangerous situations. I know a woman who experienced incredible betrayal trauma. A very sad story. And a friend wanted to be helpful. Let me help you reframe this experience to just look for the positive, imagine the good that can come of this. That’s not what she needs right now. Because I knew enough about her situation that what she needed was safety. She was not safe. Immediately jumping to, what are the lessons? Or what are the blessings that could come from this? Worst Case Scenario: Abuse & Minimization Anne: Everyone wants a happy, safe marriage. And so women have already been operating on that for years, where they’re like, okay, he can change. I will be patient as he changes. I will believe in Christ’s atonement. So they’re saying, I will be patient. Because I want this positive outcome. But when it comes to abuse, the worst case scenario is not divorce. You’re currently in the worst case scenario, abuse. And nothing will feel good. There’s nothing that’s going to feel peaceful. There’s nothing that’s going to feel right when it comes to abuse. Every effort you make to work towards safety will feel like, ugh, I don’t want to do this. Tracy: Truthful thinking is often painful. The reality of our situations hurts. So, it is tempting to minimize the pain of it and pretend it’s not as bad as it is. Post-Traumatic Growth Vs. Spiritual Bypass Tracy: For me, allowing myself to feel as broken as I was, that’s a starting place. And then diving into learning to have more compassion for myself. And giving myself grace for the things I’d been through. Where I had been victimized, and then integrating the story. So it’s like I can think back on my story, even the story I’m in right now, still, and not feel ashamed of it. Not feel this intense pain about it. It’s part of who I am now, and I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t been through that. This new humility where because I feel so much compassion for myself, it naturally extends to others. I just feel compassion for all my fellow human beings, whatever struggles they’re going through. It’s changed my perspectives on almost everything. It affected basically every part of my life. Using Spiritual Bypass Means Post Traumatic Growth Isn’t Possible Tracy: Surround yourself with safe people who can be patient with you, who can see you up close and personal, and not turn away. Anne: I think when women realize they were a victim. They don’t have to go to 12-step for the rest of their lives. There is no way to heal when using prayer for my husband as spiritual bypass. There’s nothing they did or can do that would have avoided it. And then learning new skills, learning new things about themselves. This can be a reason to learn and grow more. Trigger Warning: Positive Post Tracy: Exactly. And it’s not a straight and narrow path. It’s a long, winding, loop de loop kind of path. When I was in deep trauma, it was difficult for me to hear overly positive reflections on betrayal trauma from people at the other end of the tunnel. It felt painful and unrealistically optimistic. Like I couldn’t trust that these women were actually at peace with all that had happened. And I resented they were not giving justice to the pain they had endured. For me, for hope to feel legitimate, I have to hear and feel how dark it was before. If I just see an after picture, then I doubt the reality of the before picture. I have to see them side by side to fully appreciate and trust the miracle of the healing that has taken place. Not everyone here knows my story, or is witness to the depths of the pain and trauma I have experienced. The hopelessness, fear, confusion, paralysis, anger, loneliness, anxiety, depression, and deep sorrow. I do not ever want to minimize the pain and trauma of anyone, by glossing over the struggle and only celebrating the healing. Growth From Betrayal Trauma Because the struggle is real, and it is hard. And I believe in honoring the moment we are in, and the emotions that we are feeling. Because doing that is a key part of finding genuine peace and healing. But it’s hard to accept and honor where we’re at from a place of self compassion and love if we feel that others are not honoring it with us. Tracy: So, please know that I still hold a place for those of you in the depths of the struggle. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And I don’t judge you for any of it. I see you and I love you. So, after that lengthy disclaimer, I can finally say that I am grateful for my betrayal trauma. I woke up at 5 a.m. after a disturbing dream and couldn’t go back to sleep. And I was lying in bed and realized that I am grateful for it. I never thought I’d get to this point. I wasn’t sure if I ever even wanted to get to this point. But I am here, and I am glad. I am grateful for the person I am becoming because of what I have experienced. And I like me. I have learned things and grown in ways I am not sure I could have without experiencing the trauma of betrayal. Does this mean I would go back and choose to do this again? I don’t know. I’m not sure. Does it mean I would wish anyone else to be blessed with betrayal trauma? Hell no. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Does it mean God predestined me to be betrayed by my husband, assigning this trial to me? No, I don’t believe that for a second. The Good & Bad Of Betrayal Tracy: He hasn’t condemned me for missing those warnings. He has loved me and helped me learn from the experience. And through the experience, I have learned that he wants me to be safe and to know happiness, and I have learned how to trust and rely on him to keep me safe and at peace. And if I miss another warning and fall into darkness again, he will be there to lift me up and guide me back to light and healing. None of the good that has resulted for me through this trauma takes away from the bad. I view them side by side. If I didn’t give full validation to the bad, I wouldn’t fully appreciate the good. Why would I want to cheat myself of greater joy by glossing over or denying the darkest parts of my journey? I will do my best to honor whatever moment I am in, knowing that things can always be changing. And I am not defined by any one moment. I don’t have to feel sad, or lonely, or angry forever. Just as I don’t expect to feel happy and positive all the time for the rest of my life either. The beauty is in the flow. Choosing safety And I think the gratitude and joy that we can feel if we allow it to come naturally, as opposed to chasing it is more genuine. That’s my experience. It was not helpful for me growing up as a child in a culture and family where I was constantly told I needed to choose to be happy. To choose not to let things bother me, and that I just needed to smile more. The ultimate spiritual bypass. It wasn’t helpful. It didn’t help me to be a happy kid. And in trauma, when I was legitimately a victim of a terrible thing, it was re-traumatizing and therefore actually stunted me a little bit. Until I recognize what goes on and set boundaries around people who were not safe. First of all, my own experience growing up, there was an absolute aversion to the word “feminist”, to the point that I never did any learning about it, I accepted that feminism was a bad thing. I grew up hearing the word feminazi used by people close to me. Which is a really derogatory, mean thing to say. Even in my adulthood, when I started opening myself up a little bit to some ideas in feminism, I thought, is there another term we can use? Is there another term? Is there another word we can use? But now, I have come to embrace and love the word. I consider myself a feminist. Not just a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist. Feminism Vs. Spiritual Bypass Let’s see what Sarah Bessey says about it. She says, page 13 of her book, Feminism is complicated, and it varies for each person, much like Christianity. It’s not necessary to subscribe to all the diverse and contrary opinions within feminism to call oneself a feminist. God is the source of truth. Christians can still thank God for the good works associated with feminism, such as the gaining of status for women as persons under the law. Voting, owning property, and defending themselves in a court of law against domestic violence and rape. As Canadian theologian John D. Stackhouse, Jr. says, Christian feminists can celebrate any sort of feminism that brings more justice and human flourishing to the world. No matter who is bringing it, since we recognize the hand of God in all that is good. Modern Christian feminism is alive and well, from social justice movements to seminaries and churches to suburban living rooms worldwide. The Radical Notion Of Equality Tracy: At the core, feminism simply consists of the radical notion that women are people too. Anne: I was talking to someone about it. They were uncomfortable about the word feminist. And they said, well, I just don’t want it to swing too far. And I said, the pendulum cannot swing too far on equality. Like what? That we always have to keep women a little below men. No, it can swing as far as it needs to swing. Currently speaking, women are not believed. Women are not taken seriously. When they experience this extreme emotional and psychological abuse and oppression, they are blamed for it. If we talk about our experience, we shouldn’t talk about it in that way. And if we complain about it, we’re complaining too much about it. If we stay silent about it, we are in denial. There’s no way right now to appropriately protest it without being blamed in some way. Tracy: Right. Because it sounds radical. Anne: Yeah, it sounds extreme, right? Oh, she’s using this word abuse. It’s not that extreme. And you’re like, no, that’s actually what it is. And I’m not being extreme. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it can go too far when it comes to equality. So until women can be equally believed, as equally understood, as equally taken seriously. The pendulum has not swung far enough. Tracy: I love Sarah Bessey, she names one of her chapters: “Jesus Made a Feminist Out of Me” Feminism: Women Are Equal To Men Tracy: This was part of the transformation, the post-traumatic growth. It was tapping into this truth. That society had been suppressing in me for most of my life leading up to that point. On page 111, she’s talking about a difficult experience for herself, which had to do with pregnancy, but for me, it was betrayal trauma. And she says, but the truth remains, regardless of the circumstances unique to us. The voice of God has a habit of breaking through the noise of our lives, giving us a turning point. So that we mark the rest of our lives differently from that moment on. When we talk about these moments in our lives, we begin our stories with the words, and then everything changes. And that was betrayal trauma. And I’m a feminist now. Jesus made a feminist out of me. That was a natural result of healing in my life. It was a result of stopping the spiritual bypass. Anne: For women uncomfortable with this word feminist, I want you to consider who is telling you that feminists are bad? What is that about? Tracy: It’s because it’s a disruption of the status quo. It infringes on power structures as they are. It’s a threat to patriarchy. Patriarchy & prayer for my husband Tracy: I agree, though, with Sarah when she says patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity. For a while, even after I began to embrace feminism. I still was like, but is there a way to make it work within patriarchy? Is there a way that patriarchy is still the right way and like, and we just have to tweak this or tweak that in prayer for my husband? And ultimately, no, I believe that patriarchy is the result of the fall, like that’s not how God intended men and women to interact. Men are legally in charge, they’re the organizers of society. And for most of human history, women didn’t have much power. I mean, they weren’t counted as humans. You’re literally treated as property. Which is the ultimate spiritual bypass. You don’t have freedom because God made it that way. You can’t vote, you have no say in how the laws are actually written that affect you. Results in a terrible, terrible experience for women and girls. But I would say it’s not healthy for boys and men either. Like, it’s not what God intended. It also sets these strict gender roles. I don’t think they’re helpful to men either. It’s comfortable for them because it was made to be more comfortable for them, but it’s still not the way God intended it. HOW RIGID “Gender Roles” KEEP WOMEN STUCK Anne: So you’ve got the class in charge, men. They can define these roles. So they want to define the situation that is the most comfortable for them. And so they’re telling women, well, you would be most comfortable if you acted like this. If you did this, rather than letting the women have a voice. The most logical way of doing a partnership with a husband and wife, would be, okay, we’re going to marry. Let’s sit down and talk about each of our talents. What are the things we enjoy and what are the things we’re good at? So I might say, I’m good at yard work. I’m excellent at gardening. I love being outdoors. I’m not so good at cooking and organizing food. That’s just not one of my talents. It’s not something I’m interested in, right? And then he would say, okay, these are the things I like. I also like being outdoors. I also like doing yard work. Great. We can do that together. And I also don’t like cooking. At that point where there’s this thing that’s like, huh, we both don’t like cooking, then the answer is not, well, you’re the girl. So you have to do it. Sometimes it sounds spiritual…like telling women the answer to their marriage issues is simply prayer for your husband. It still removes shared responsibility. Protecting Women’s Choices For Their Lives Anne: We want to protect women’s ability to choose the kind of life they want. That includes freedom from the idea that prayer for your husband is her primary job. Many people can hold a job, be a parent, and take a shower. And doing their laundry and eating. So this idea that women must do basic household tasks. Like laundry, cooking, cleaning and stuff like that. Because a human isn’t capable of doing basic self care things. And having talents, exploring their talents, and doing anything else is ridiculous. But everyone should be free to explore their own talents and what they’re good at. And what they’re interested in, and also be able to do regular household tasks. A person’s mission in life should not be just basic household tasks that everyone needs to know how to do. Tracy: Right, and if both the husband and the wife approached marriage in that way. Approached life in that way, then they could work that out together and form some sort of equilibrium. But forcing people into these specific gender roles, there are plenty of men who don’t feel comfortable being shoehorned in that way either. Anne: They don’t know how to fix the air conditioner. And so what do you do? You call an AC guy to fix your air conditioner. But then to say to a woman, well, you’re a woman, so you should be forced to cook. Working Out Marital Tasks Anne: It’s like, no, you’re not forcing me to fix the air conditioner. So what can we do to work this out? There are so many other options. If we’re willing to accept that God created each of us as individuals with talents to do his work. He hasn’t just said all women I created you with one job, domestic labor and prayer for your husband. Sorry, it’s your only option. Tracy: Once you move beyond, when her children are young and at home, women talk about feeling empty. Like, where’s my purpose anymore? How sad is that? Anne: My Mom, she’s only worked outside the home for a very short time, but she’s very handy. She knows how to tile, she’s a kitchen designer, she does electrical and plumbing and all kinds of things. And she remodeled our house a ton. She’s helping me remodel my house right now. In fact, that is the construction you can hear in the background if you’ve heard any of it. My Mom is out hammering and finishing my basement right now. She’s interested in construction. She loves it. Is she the best person at making dinner every night? No, that’s not one of her talents. But that doesn’t make her a bad mom. If she couldn’t explore her talents, and told to just be happy making dinner, that’s spiritual bypass. the Role “Biblical” Womanhood in prayer for my husband Anne: She’s an excellent, amazing mom, and loves construction. I’m grateful that even if she didn’t work in the construction industry, she could explore her talents. Even not working outside the home. So I’m not trying to say that women have to do it in a certain way or a way that they feel uncomfortable with. But having a man look at you and say, well, you have to clean the toilet because you’re a woman. That’s your job, is crazy. Tracy: It is. Anne: It can be anyone’s job. Tracy: Yeah, she talks a lot about this in Chapter 6, Patron Saints, Spiritual Midwives, and “Biblical” Womanhood. She says, the phenomenon of being a stay at home mother is relatively new and unique to the prosperous. Right along with daycares to provide child care. It’s a mark of our privilege to decide. Or to adjust our household budget to keep one parent at home full time with the children. I believe it is a worthy pursuit, good work, holy work. I hope so, it’s my own daily work. But it’s not the same thing as Biblical womanhood, is it? If a woman can enjoy the title in Haiti, or even by the woman hailed in scripture. The same way it can be by a middle class woman in Canada, then Biblical womanhood must be more than this. Jesus Defends Women’s Choices Tracy: I love the example she gives of Mary in the story of Mary and Martha. I had never read this story before. Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus as a pupil. This is on page 19. She says, “The daughters had never had that spot. Even after Martha tried to remind her of her duties and responsibilities to their guests, Jesus defended her right to learn as his disciple. He honored her choice as the better and said it will not be taken away from her.” And what is she doing right there, but defying gender roles and cultural standards. Christ is honoring and encouraging her in that. So I never understood the story that way. Because in the church culture I grew up in, it was very much, no, to be a good woman, you do it this way. You fit this role, you think this way, you feel this way. You know spiritual bypass. Anne: This is similar to spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Religion and society tell women As a strong woman, I should bypass painful things and remain in prayer for my husband. Benevolent Patriarchy And Spiritual Bypass Anne: If you’re a real, true, righteous woman, then your husband wouldn’t be looking at porn, because your prayer for your husband would be powerful enough, and he wouldn’t want to do that. If you had enough faith in Jesus, you can create miracles in your family. There’s this intersection here between spiritual bypass and feminism. Tracy: That actually reminds me of benevolent patriarchy, which is what exists in my church organization. It says, “we’re going to put women on a pedestal. We’re going to talk them up. We’re going to talk about how wonderful they are, how spiritual they are, how incredible they are, how they are more inclined to righteousness than men are.” “They don’t have to work as hard for it. It just comes more naturally to them. But we don’t want to hear what they have to say. We don’t want their unique experiences. Because if their unique experiences contradict what we’re saying their experience should be, they’re not valuable anymore.” Anne: They’re more spiritual and better, but they can’t be trusted to lead. Tracy: Exactly. It doesn’t make sense. It’s very much a, as long as you’re falling in line and holding up this system, then your voice is valuable. And we will let you speak in prayer for my husband. But if that same woman says, well, this is my experience, and this is what God is teaching me. But it contradicts the status quo or infringes on the comfort of men. Then, suddenly, her voice is not valuable anymore. Suddenly, her access to the spirit must is impinged a form of spiritual bypass. Asking Too Much & Holding Men and Women To The Same Standard Anne: Wonky, she’s gone off the deep end. She’s a little cray cray. When women get labeled crazy or gone too far, usually it’s when they’re saying something that is right in line with church doctrine. So for example, most churches say abuse is wrong. But then they’ll be like, well, this woman is making this up, or she’s being too loud, or she’s talking about it in a way that’s not the right way. It’s like, but what I’m saying is exactly in line with what you profess to believe. Tracy: Stepping outside the church for a minute, just into a secular place. That reminds me that we had the first wave of feminists with suffragettes, getting the right to vote. Then we had the second wave feminists in the sixties and seventies. And then we had the third wave feminists a few decades later. We’re really just saying, look, we want to hold men to the same standard that we’ve been held to all along. And men resisted that, society resisted that, and labeled the feminists as a problem. Women In The Workforce Anne: On that note, I want to talk about women in the workforce. So many women, when they divorce or are considering a job or something. Many women think, okay, well, I want to be a therapist. Or they think, well, I’ll work at the library or at the school, or something that fits with, how can I be a mom? And I just want to shout out to women considering, how can you become more independent or use your talents better, or wha tever you feel like you need to do. There are so many needs for women in politics, in policing or in law, like becoming lawyers, becoming judges. I want women to open their minds to like, you can do anything, and you can help the world in so many ways. Pursuing Ambitions Despite Spiritual Bypass Tracy: As a kid, I had all those kinds of ambitions. I remember wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher. Wanting to be an architect. I wanted to be a writer. But as I got older, I forgot about all of that. Because at my core, I believed that I couldn’t. And because of the way it was talked about, it was the way it was modeled for me. I was told, yes, you need to go to college and get a degree, so that you can get a job if your husband gets hit by a truck someday. That’s literally what I was told. It wasn’t so that… Anne: …so that you can fill the measure of your creation. Tracy: Exactly. It was always a backup plan. Like I had all these ambitions, and yet I felt these limitations made it very difficult to actually pursue any of that. because i was focused on prayer for my husband. Spiritual Bypass And The Struggle For Independence Tracy: And I ended up doing what my culture told me to do, which was get married young and focus on prayer for my husband. I barely graduated from college before my first baby was born. And didn’t get any real work experience, so although I have a degree, it’s sad. I feel embarrassed even talking about it, because it feels like a worthless piece of paper to me. Because I’ve never used it, and I have no serious career work experience. I’ve had little jobs here and there. But I was not set up to think about my life in terms of, oh yes, I could pursue a career. Because that could be a fulfilling thing for me. And beyond that, so many women in our community, for sure, feel so trapped. It’s just another layer to the difficulty of their situations. Because it’s difficult to see a way out when they have been financially dependent, and they feel so helpless. There are opportunities, and I love when women figure it out. But, oh, it adds so much more difficulty. Anne: Like, let’s say now at 40, you decided you would go to law school, you could do that, right? But then you’re 15 years behind the man who went to law school at 25. So that’s what makes it difficult, but that doesn’t make it impossible. It’s Never Too Late Anne: Women may think they’ve lost they’re chance to do that thing that you feel like in your heart, you always wanted to do. It could be that you want to be a painter, literally like paint people’s houses, not like an artist. It could be that you want to run a yard care business. I don’t know, whatever you enjoy, it is not too late. Will you be behind your male counterparts, who started when they were 25? Yeah, but I want women to know that if they start now with whatever they want to do. If they want to go to med school and finally graduate when they were 60, they could still be a doctor for 20 years from when they’re 60 to 80. You know, there’s always options. And I want women to realize that it’s not too late for you. Tracy: I see women go through the struggle because it’s a struggle. But then I see them do it, it’s incredible to see. Also, it sets a wonderful example for your children. HONORING CHOICES IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Anne: Yeah, now that being said, so many women want to stay at home and I honor that choice as well. I remember when I had my son and I was thinking about going back to work, because at the time my husband didn’t have a job. My son was nursing. And so just the thought of leaving him to work horrified me. I did not want to do that. So I want to honor women who are like, no, no, I need to be with my children. This is what I need to do. Supporting Women’s Choices Anne: Because those things are important, and supporting women in their choices and what they feel they need to do in their lives. Our aim here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to support, validate, encourage, and be there for you regardless of what you choose. We care about you and love you and validate you and want you to do what’s right for you, whatever that is. Tracy: Yes, for women unfamiliar or a little uncomfortable with the idea of feminism. You don’t have to align yourself politically with a particular brand of feminism to call yourself a feminist. There are pro-life feminists. If that’s an issue for some women. Yeah, just don’t be afraid of the word. There’s no shame in the word. Women Deserve Peace & Safety Anne: It can mean many things to many people, but the cool thing is you can define your own type of feminism. You can define the way you want to promote equal rights for yourself in your own life, and also for women throughout the world. It can help us overcome spiritual bypass. This podcast more than anything is to help women come out of the fog of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And be able to live lives of peace and safety. That is what women deserve.

Have you ever felt like your marriage keeps cycling between calm and tension? You’re not alone. Many women spend years searching for answers, while being told to communicate better, manage stress, or meet their husband’s needs. But those explanations don’t solve the issue, because this isn’t random conflict, it’s a repeating emotional cycle of abuse. This cycle follows a familiar rhythm. Tension builds, an incident erupts, then comes remorse or brief kindness.The “honeymoon” leads to calm, and the pattern resets, leaving you doubting yourself instead of seeing the manipulation. In this episode of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, we show what the emotional cycle of abuse looks like in real life.You’ll hear a woman’s story who once believed more patience and prayer could fix her marriage, but it never did. This conversation exposes the emotional cycle of abuse and helps women find a path to emotional safety. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: What is the Emotional Cycle of Abuse? Anne: If you’ve ever wondered why your marriage feels like a constant loop, moments of peace, followed by tension, followed by something that breaks you. You’re not imagining it. You’ve probably searched for answers. You’ve likely been told it’s a communication issue or somebody has unmet needs, or that you just need to try harder, be calmer, or maybe even pray more. But none of that explains why it always circles back to pain and unresolved issues. What you’re living through isn’t chaos. It’s a pattern, a deliberate repeating cycle, And when you finally see that pattern for what it is, an emotional cycle of abuse, that’s what today’s episode is about. Today I have a member of our community. We’re gonna call her Jamie. Here’s a part of her interview. Jamie: I just knew I can’t do this. There’s a concept called Pain for Love, it was the first time I heard anything that sounded close to what I was experiencing. It was that you’re emotionally at a zero, then they would act out. And then you start getting angry and explode, and they realize, oh, I have got to calm you down. Anne: So the therapist called this Pain for Love, but didn’t explain it as a cycle of emotional abuse. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Welcome, Jamie. Jamie: Hi, thank you, Anne. It’s so nice to be here. Thank you. Understanding The Early Signs of An Emotional Cycle of Abuse Anne: Let’s start at the beginning. Jamie: At the beginning of my relationship, it was amazing. I met my husband through a mutual friend from high school. In phone conversations with her over a couple of years. I knew about him. He knew about me. So when we met in person, it was so much fun. I felt so good. He seemed to have a lot of energy, I kid you not. Two weeks after we met, he took me with a big friend group to Cancun. And he would buy me things. He seemed interested in the same things. We went to a lot of Christian concerts, and he tagged along with us. It was so much fun, and we enjoyed it. I can say that when we got married, the light switch just flipped and a lot of that stuff stopped. But looking back now. I can see red flags, that I didn’t know or understand. Anne: When we’re in it, it’s not a red flag. It’s more of a hiccup. It’s not like someone’s screaming, and yelling is not bad. No, it’s not bad. And there’s nothing that we did or didn’t do back then, because even with a good person, like a genuinely good person, you might have a hiccup. They might be some kind of fluke thing that happens. You can’t tell if it’s a fluke or not until you’ve known him for a couple of years. Jamie: That’s right. It’s a pattern of behavior, and the pattern of behavior only comes with time. For me, we were young, so I expected natural time and maturity to happen, and that those little hiccups wouldn’t be what they turned out to be. When Affection Turns Into A Control Tactic Anne: Right, growing together. Jamie: Yeah. And that never happened at all. Anne: You’re processing it the best way possible. So, let’s talk about things that you noticed, but maybe didn’t process as red flags. Did you ever notice something was off? Talk about how you defined it at that time, not knowing that you were dealing with the emotional cycle of abuse. Jamie: One of the incidents that happened, not someone I was in a relationship with, but just dating to go out and date. He ended up holding me against my will for three days. Anne: Oh, yikes. Jamie: That was a year and a half before. I had been in therapy. I was in a good place when I met my husband. So three months into dating my husband, we decided to exclusively date. The only thing I noticed was the F-bomb. And my husband used that in conversational speak. I don’t and never have, but he was, and I was like, okay, I don’t want him to think this is him because I’m having a reaction to that. So I actually shared with him what had happened to me. I was vulnerable and shared this traumatic event with him. And I said, “Hey, when you’re using that, I’m having a reaction. I feel it. It’s probably the last little bit that I’ve got to work through.” And then he turned around and used the F-bomb over and over. He weaponized it, then told me, “Well, you are the one who has the issue with that. I’m not changing the way I use anything. You are the one who has the problem with that. So that’s your problem to work through, not mine.” He weaponized my vulnerability Jamie: And at the time I was like, oh, I guess he’s not wrong. At the time, I didn’t think it was that big of a deal because I was like, maybe he’s not using it more. Maybe I’m just more perceptive of it, you know? But no, he absolutely weaponized it and did it over and over and over. At the same time, I would say to him like, these are actual examples. “I really love it when you open the door for me. That makes me feel good and special. Thank you for doing that.” And he quit. He withheld it. That one he never really had a reason for or excuse other than, well, I’m just not that type of guy to do that. Anne: So, this was after you thanked him, so he opened the door for you. Then after you thanked him, he was like, because she appreciates this and it means something to her, I’m for sure not gonna do it. Jamie: I rationalized that away as, I guess that’s not that big of a deal if he doesn’t open the door. It’s kind of weird that I told him that I liked it. Now he is not doing it. But of course at the time I just, okay, no big deal. And didn’t think that type of behavior would continue, but it did. In little ways and in big ways, and still to this day, it is that way. So he withholds anything that I tell him is good. He continues repeatedly to do something that I tell him is bad, and then blames me for the reaction of pain, hurt, and anger. After that for a really long time. How an Emotional Cycle of Abuse Keeps Women Off Balance Jamie: He’s so good at making me believe that. I did believe it was my fault a long time. I thought I was in a good place, but maybe I’m not. And he is a healthcare professional, so I trusted him. He’s gotta know what he is talking about in some things. I didn’t see it as manipulation at the time. Anne: Each thing that would happen felt isolated. The F word thing, that’s just about the F word, the door thing. It’s just about doors. Jamie: That’s exactly right. And still to this day, that’s exactly how he wants to categorize it. We have three kids together. A boy, girl, boy, ages 20, 18, and 15, and the 20-year-old was a baby and in a stroller. I knew something is wrong and I couldn’t put my finger on it, so I found a counselor. I remember going into his office and he was like, okay, y’all hug each other. Anne: So this was couple counseling. Jamie: This couples counseling. And so I gave him a hug and he is like, well, I usually see the problem if there’s a problem giving a hug, but y’all don’t seem to have a problem giving a hug. I’m not sure what’s going on here. And then he would give us like little homework assignments. And I would have this hope that maybe if he does the homework assignment and I do my homework assignment, that we would come back and things would get better. The Role of Counseling and Church Advice in Continuing the Emotional Cycle of Abuse Jamie: That was a waste of time and money. It ended up hurting me. Because I had expectations that maybe this could help us, and I’m like, what is going on? He told me he doesn’t wanna have sex with me, and it was my fault. I felt, if I left it up to him, we would have sex a handful of times a year, birthdays and Mother’s Day. All three of our kids were conceived on my birthday or his birthday. I had been trying to engage with him, and I would get nothing from him, blank stare acting, dismissive, silence. He’s pursed his lips so much now over these years that he has wrinkled mad and angry pursed lips, and just sitting there sulking in silence. And then I discovered some pornography, and I was devastated and in a really bad, bad place. So I reached out to the pastor and I’m like, we need help. And the pastor ends up telling me that I am not letting him lead. I’m like, “I am letting him lead.” And he goes, “You just don’t like where he’s leading.” And he ends up telling me that I am not an obedient wife, that I need to forgive, love, and serve, and that I’m not being obedient. Anne: Obedient my eye. You were totally loving and serving this man. Jamie: Yes, in every way possible. And then of course, this whole time he’s so good at spinning it to make it feel like my fault. At those times, I believed it. And like, okay, we need help, and you need to be more obedient. I left completely devastated and had to leave the church. Because I could not return to that pastor until he left. Emboldened Husband lashes out, calling me a liar Jamie: I was so brokenhearted and devastated, and my husband was like, “See, I told you you’re the problem. It’s not me.” And things went downhill from there. Anne: When they are enabled, they go downhill pretty quickly, ’cause they’re given permission to be worse. I wanna point out the stonewalling was a lie. The blaming you was a lie. Even when he goes into the pastor and says that stuff about you, that’s a lie. So it’s lie after lie after lie, but you don’t know that it’s a lie. Jamie: Most of the time his lying was under the radar, but there were times where I picked up on it. There were times where I’m like, oh, I just caught him and a lie. That’s when he would lash out at me and say, “You are calling me a liar. I don’t know why you’re with me.” Anne: I’m smiling a little bit. ‘Cause in the Living Free Workshop, that’s one of the strategies I teach. If they try to manipulate you through saying something like, “You just think I’m a liar.” Say, “Oh, I never thought about that.” ‘Cause the reason they do that to us is a manipulation tactic. So we’re like, “No, I don’t think you’re a liar.” So that we’ll back down. And sometimes they’re saying the exact thing that if we just agreed as a Christian, that “agree with thine adversary quickly.” I’ve found that a simple, “Hmm, maybe I do think you’re a liar. I need to think about that more.” Strategy removes you from manipulation. Emotional abuse is mentioned in addiction models Jamie: You’re right, exactly right. And I felt like, I didn’t say that, you said that, but I am pointing out to you right here that you lied. That definitely is a tactic that worked a lot on me for a while. Anne: It works on all of us. Jamie: I finally Googled emotional abuse. And the first things that came up were the addiction models. And I’m like, oh yeah, emotional abuse and the addiction model, like pornography addiction, sex addiction. Anne: Sorry. I’m actually shocked that they talk about the emotional cycle of abuse, because they usually avoid saying it’s abuse. Jamie: I absorbed that like a sponge. I ordered him the book and the workbook, and I did a phone group, and many videos about pornography addiction. I did find a counselor through that women’s group online, and we started doing counseling with him. He never mentioned anything of it being abuse, ever. Anne: This is still couple therapy. Jamie: It was supposed to be, because we were going along the lines of that workbook, following those guidelines where you do dailies with your spouse, and after two times I’m like, I can’t do this. I didn’t know I was seeking safety for myself. I just knew I can’t do this. We shared a lot of the material we were learning. The “Pain for love” pattern Jamie: And there’s a concept called Pain for Love. And I just went, oh my goodness, Pain for Love. And the concept there I attached to, because it was the first time I heard or read anything that sounded anything close to what I was experiencing. It was that you’re emotionally at a zero, so you’re fine. But then they would act out, act out, act out, and then you start getting angrier. And then kind of explode and they realize, oh, I have got to calm you down and I’ve got to bring you back down. So he would show up to love me and bring me down, and then return to being his normal self. Anne: Wait, wait, hold on a minute. This is the first time I’ve heard of this concept before, but you’re essentially describing domestic abuse where he grooms, deescalates the victim so he can maintain control, coercive control. Jamie: Yes. Anne: Then as soon as he feels like he can relax because you’re under his control, then you can just go back to being miserable. Jamie: Yes, when I heard Pain for Love, I felt like you have to get to this big level of pain before they’ll show up and love you, and they’ll love you for a little bit, and then leave and go back to causing pain. Anne: I’m so shocked that someone would say this to a woman and not realize how she’s gonna interpret it. I don’t know how he intended it, but the way we interpret it is, this is how I get love. Is that how you were interpreting it? Jamie: Yes Finding Clarity After Naming the Emotional Cycle of Abuse Jamie: The concept is that I would have to get in so much pain, and then he would realize, I need to love my wife for a couple of days. Then rinse and repeat. Yeah, I believed until one of the ladies from my group suggested you and your podcast. I had the podcast on my phone, and then one day I’m like, I’m gonna listen to all this. And my mind was blown. Now, I’ve listened to every one of your podcasts. It was eye-opening. No one had ever told me to seek safety for myself before. Everybody puts the emphasis on him. We gotta help him, love him, encourage him, and we’ve gotta give him the space to do what he needs to do all while hurting me, and nobody ever addressed that, ever. And then I started my Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions. I’ve been in now for about 16 months. Only through what I’ve learned through BTR do I know that I’ve been doing a lot of safety seeking behaviors and that it was the best way to get yourself back after emotional abuse. Anne: Yeah, the whole time you are doing the right thing. You are going for help, but it’s insane how no one we ask for help, except for BTR, knows it’s abuse or defines it that way. You found that emotional abuse article that led you to sex addiction therapy, but then they didn’t continue to talk about that. They didn’t say, oh, you found us through emotional abuse, because this is the emotional cycle of abuse. And if you’re emotionally abused, we need to make sure that you’re safe. That that doesn’t even enter the conversation is so crazy to me. Jamie: Yeah, me too. Finding out about an affair Jamie: I came across you, and my life is now completely changing in the direction it needs to change. But only because of what I’ve learned here. I have started seeking safety for myself, and it’s changed everything. And seeking safety. I now feel more confident. When we were dating, he mirrored me and love bombed me. He wasn’t being his genuine, authentic self. He was doing whatever he needed to do to convince me he was the guy for me. Now I look back and I can see there was a lot of abuse and betrayal trauma in my marriage. Anne: It’s been a lie, just an emotional cycle of abuse. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Jamie: Yes, I wish I’d known this a long time ago, but I know it now. My youngest son wanted to go shopping. My husband had told me he was going to go into the business earlier that morning. We own our own healthcare business together. My son says, Hey, I forgot something in dad’s car. Can we go get it? We stopped by, he had locked the doors and taken my key off my key chain. My son called him, he answered the phone, but then put us on mute for like two minutes, and then two minutes later he’s like, hello, hello, can you hear me? So he comes and opens the door, and we went in. We heard the back door open. My son headed back there, and I immediately knew then that my husband was having an affair. My first thought was to protect my son, so I just said, Hey, let’s go. We are leaving. We get in the car and my son says, “Mom, aren’t you gonna confront Dad?” Seeking safety for myself Jamie: No, this is not for you to be a witness of, and I care about you and we’re gonna go. And he just didn’t understand why I didn’t wanna confront Dad. About a month later, he walks into my room and says, “We need to talk about divorce.” About a month after that, he hands me a handwritten piece of paper with a settlement offer. The bare, bare minimum and wants to walk away with our business free and clear without giving me a dime. He thinks that’s fair. He was like, I think this is fair. If I didn’t think it was fair, I wouldn’t have written it and handed it to you. So during this time, I’m still in groups. I’m still getting support. And there’s financial abuse in the divorce process. I had an appointment with an attorney, and the attorney tells me, “Oh, he filed.” Which I didn’t think he would do, but makes sense if he’s trying to start a new life with his affair partner. He’s still in the house, but in the next day or two, we’ll have a temporary hearing for him to move out. I put boundaries into place that I’ve learned from the coaches at BTR from your podcast. From the Living Free Workshop, I’ve learned so much, and it has totally changed my life. And although I wouldn’t wish this on anybody, because this is so hard. I’m grateful and thankful that I have the tools I need to move on and get safe for my kids. I feel like since I’ve learned everything through BTR, I’ve been on a fast track to healing. I haven’t had that. BTR has been a godsend to me to escape the emotional cycle of abuse. Feeling thankful for a changed life Jamie: He isolated me 22 years ago in the middle of the country, and BTR has reached me and changed my life and my kids’ lives. I’m so thankful, I’m thankful for the coaches. I’m thankful you have the courage to turn this around and be a light for other women. I want all of them to know, like you say in the podcast, you didn’t want another woman on earth to go through this. And I don’t either. I know that I have to walk through some pretty big storms and fire before I’m on the other side, but I’m here and it’s what I’ve been waiting for. I’ve learned how to handle those trauma responses better that I was trying to do with the other therapist, and it never worked ’cause it wasn’t addressing the real issue. It’s changed my life. Anne: I’m so grateful to hear that. ’cause I have, of course, my bad days. It’s really hard to do this work, as you can imagine. I’m so sorry about what you’re going through. And then also so grateful that what we’re doing is making a difference. It’s drastically different than anything you’ll get from a therapist or a couple therapists or a sex addiction therapist, because we can see what’s really happening. And it’s crazy to me that like no matter how hard a woman tries. No matter how smart she is, and no matter how resourced she is, if she can’t see what is really happening, no one else will help her. It’s so heartbreaking to me. Jamie: Right. For so many years, I was trying to tell my truth. I said it, and nobody got it. And then I come to BTR and this is the truth. On the fast track to healing Jamie: This is what’s going on, and it’s changed my life and my family. I say I’ve been with the group for 16 months and listening to the podcast for almost two years. That two years compared to 25, that feels like fast track. I think I got the tools I needed to handle what was coming, because I have always said, God knows what we need well before we know we need it. And I think he put this into place to help me, ’cause I feel like I’m not alone. There are so many other women going through this, I’ve have been through it. I’ve listened to their stories, virtually held their hand and given them hugs. The coaching has been amazing, and it has changed my life. I couldn’t be more thankful. I know that’s a God thing. Anne: I think so too. I feel like every day we hear about miracles of someone who says a prayer or something and finds us randomly somehow. It’s not that we’re not here, it’s not that we don’t have the tools to help women, it’s that there are so many other options for therapists or influencers or whoever else, and so finding the right information is so difficult to find a way out of the emotional cycle of abuse. I’m grateful to all the listeners who helped. Other women find out about it. I’m trying to get Living Free into every woman’s hands. ’cause at least for me, if I had it at the beginning or if you would’ve had it 25 years ago, can you imagine the difference that would’ve made? Jamie: Oh yes, very helpful. Always everything is geared towards it’s a we problem. Or he has this problem that we have to help him through. Getting over the shock of a calculating husband Jamie: Never addressing my pain, ever. And now, like you said, I can’t unsee it. Anne: It’s just so calculated. It’s actually really shocking if you’re listening right now and you’re like, is my husband like that? Is this an emotional cycle of abuse? Living Free will help you see what he’s like, and then you can make the decisions based on that. Jamie: Absolutely, that’s exactly what happened with me too. That helped me see exactly. And it helps me process moving forward, and especially the whirlwind I’m going through right now. What to expect, because I now can see him for what he is. And my husband is also one of those who wants to place intent over impact. Anne: It was their intent to do whatever they wanted without worrying about the consequences. Jamie: That’s right. Anne: I actually think intent matters more, and this is the reason. Someone who really genuinely cares about you, who doesn’t wanna hurt you, they’re thinking about you. And maybe they get a gift, and it’s a little offensive, and they’re like, I’m so sorry. I was trying so hard. And I missed the boat. But their intent was good. With these guys, they’re like, well, I bought you a present, didn’t I? Like, why am I not getting points? They don’t actually care about us. Jamie: That’s exactly right. There is no thought of me. Finding a safe place Anne: It’s like my sweet 12-year-old, I love him, and he is gigantic. His arms and legs are so big. If he thinks about where he’s going, he’s not gonna hurt anybody, because he’ll be aware of where his arm is, and it’s not gonna whack someone accidentally. But if he’s just clumping through the house, not thinking about anybody, someone will get hurt. So if you are not aware of the people around you and what you’re doing, you’re going to hurt people and. If you don’t think about other people at all, that is intent. And it is the basis of the emotional cycle of abuse. Jamie: I agree. Anne: Thank you so much, and thank you for your support. It’s because of clients like you and other women who listen to the podcast that we can continue to do this work. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Jamie: Thank you. The work you’ve done and are doing is a godsend. BTR is a safe place, and they’ll take you where you are, how you are. At the moment, they’ll give you tools, you can use them, and be safe. Just having a safe place is priceless. It is so worth it.

If your husband lies about small things, here’s why it’s not a small problem. Many women in our community describe the same beginning: they start noticing little lies, inconsistencies, or half-truths, but they dismiss them because, overall, he seems like a good guy. He’s involved. He apologizes. He’s trying. So the lies get minimized, explained away, or pushed aside. One of the hardest parts of living with deception is that clarity doesn’t usually arrive with a big confession or undeniable proof. It comes in fragments, small moments that are easy to dismiss, especially when your goal is to hold your family together. When a husband lies about small things, it often points to something much bigger, but that pattern can be hard to see while you’re still inside it. In this episode, Anne shares the French Fry Analogy to explain why lying, gaslighting, and blame-shifting about “small things” can be a major red flag. Before reading on, here’s something many women don’t realize: lying can be an emotional abuse tactic. That truth explains why so many thoughtful, capable women stay confused for so long—not because they’re in denial, but because it’s nearly impossible to see clearly when you’re living in a pattern that alternates between hurtful behavior and reassuring gestures, between small lies and moments that seem like progress. To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’ve been calling her Jenna to protect her identity. You’ll hear in this interview that Jenna didn’t come to clarity because her marriage suddenly got worse. She found clarity when she finally had language for the patterns and she could see how the small lies really revealed something much bigger. So let’s get into it. Welcome, Jenna Jenna: Thank you, Anne. Anne: Jenna and I have been interacting on social media for a long time. On social media, we take the concepts I teach here on the podcast and make visual representations of these concepts, usually through infographics. But every once in a while, I do a video. One of the infographics I posted was an epiphany for Jenna. It helped her see that her husband had been lying about small things, which distracted her from realizing he was also lying about big things. Speaking of social media, on Facebook. I’m also on Instagram @btr.org__, TikTok @btr.org, and if you search btr.org on YouTube, you’ll find me there. If you want to comment anonymously on any particular episode, let’s say this one, go to our website, btr.org and in the search bar put in the title of the episode. So for this one, it would be, my husband lies about small things. This episode will come up. You can see the transcription and scroll down to the bottom. And comment anonymously about what you think. I always love your comments. And I interact with women on the website all the time. I also interact with women on social media. My Marriage Was Not Healthy Anne: So you’re following me on social media, we’re interacting online and then you see this infographic. What happened next? Jenna: It resonated instantly with me. I thought we had hard times, but things are still getting better. I thought we were on that upward trajectory. But when I saw it on Instagram. It just suddenly clicked for me. It has two different graphs. One says, “What I thought my marriage was” and it shows a graph that goes up and down, but it has a trajectory that’s going up. Then, it says, “healthy, hard, healthy, hard.” Anne: Yeah, it’s kind of like a stock market graph. It’s going up in general and healthy is when it goes up and hard is when it dips down. And when it goes back up, it goes even higher. Jenna: It captures the experience I had exactly. Then, underneath what I thought my marriage was, it says what it really was. Instead of the healthy and hard healthy and hard points, it’s actually grooming and abuse, grooming and abuse. The grooming just gets more extreme, and the abuse stays the same. So it’s not that the marriage is improving. It’s that the grooming is just improving, and abuse is still there. Anne: The abuse is actually probably getting worse, but you can’t go lower in a graph. So I created this infographic because that was my experience. RECOGNIZING EMOTIONAL ABUSE PATTERNS WHEN MY HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: I thought as we did addiction recovery, and we went to all these therapists, and we did 12 step for wives of pornography addicts…. all the stuff that we would take a step forward and then two steps back. Because the addiction recovery industrial complex told me “He’s going to have relapses” and “progress, not perfection.” I thought, “Oh, we are improving over time, but of course, it’s not just going to be a perfectly straight line to success. We’re going to have ups and downs along the way.” But when I finally took a step back and realized it was abuse, and that my husband lies about small things as part of that pattern, I saw that we weren’t actually moving forward at all. I was just going around in circles. What I thought were setbacks were really just more lies, more grooming, and more emotional abuse. Let’s talk about the factors that would lead a woman to think that these are the regular ups and downs of either marriage in general, or the ups and downs of being in a relationship with a man addicted to exploitative material or maybe has a mental health issue. Jenna: I think the actions he did were positive. He was going to church. And he participated in an addiction recovery group. He did all the things that you would think of when you think of improving. Even times when he would apologize. Or times when he would not gaslight me. I thought that was positive and thought maybe that was improvement. Anne: Congratulations, you didn’t lie. I’m so proud of you! My Husband Was Lying & I Was Sticking It Out Jenna: Seriously, it would be like, oh wow, he took money out of my wallet. And didn’t think I saw, but he didn’t try to convince me that he didn’t do that. As long as you’re going to a group, to therapy, to church, there’s this idea that just doing those things equals I’m a good person. Anne: I think there’s also the societal idea that everything is fixable. As long as you’re willing to work on it and go to therapy. Of course, there’s going to be a solution. Many people go straight to whether their abusive husband needs therapy or an addiction recovery program. Rather than thinking, “Whoa, we need to get you emotionally and psychologically safe.” Why Does My Husband Lie? I was talking to my uncle the other day about my ex, telling him some details. And he was shocked. And then at five o’clock in the morning, the next day he emailed me and said, “Anne, your ex needs a treatment program.” I just laughed, I was like, “That’s what I thought. And so that’s why I got him into a treatment program.” Because he’s abusive and he lies, treatment didn’t help him. And no one told me it was abuse, which is why I’m doing this podcast. Jenna: Yeah. I think there’s an idea that marriage is hard. No one’s perfect. As long as he’s working on it by going to a treatment center or going to therapy or whatever he may be doing. As long as he’s doing those things, you just have to stick it out. Those kinds of ideas, at least, were in my mind, and made it difficult for me to even consider the option that maybe not all marriages are this hard. Maybe not all marriages are abusive. I think that’s one idea that kept me stuck. I Learn His Lies, Gaslighting & Manipulation Are Abuse Anne: Even if you know it’s abuse, then you’re like, “Wow, it’s abuse? Okay, we need to get him into therapy because he’s abusive because he has childhood trauma or he feels shame.” I don’t think they realize that’s not why he’s abusive, number one, and therapy will not help. Most therapists think, “Oh, I can help.” They don’t realize they’re going to get manipulated and gaslit themselves. I don’t know if it’s an ego thing, but therapists don’t tend to realize they are unable to help abusers. Because the prevailing opinion of everyone is that therapy will solve this, I work so hard to educate all women about this. So I hope the infographics help. I took many of them, and I put them in the back of Trauma Mama Husband Drama, which is my picture book for adults. It’s available at btr.org/books. And It’s also available on Amazon. It’s a picture book. So it’s also this visual representation of what it’s like to be emotionally and psychologically abused and coerced, and not realize what’s happening because of his lies. Teaching these concepts in a way that women can actually apply is my top priority. And social media is so important, because I can post those visual representations there. As you’ve been interacting with me on social media, what’s your take on why these are so helpful for victims? I Seek & Find The Truth Jenna For me, learning the term betrayal trauma was incredibly validating and empowering. It gave me language for what I was experiencing—especially in moments when my husband lies about small things and I couldn’t explain why it affected me so deeply.The infographics do something similar. They capture my experience in a way I sometimes can’t put into words. They give me a simple, visual way to understand what I’m feeling and to share that understanding with others. It’s therapeutic, clear, and approachable—and the fact that they’re visually engaging makes them even easier to take in. Anne: Yeah, having it be cute doesn’t hurt. So the process is like, I have an idea in my head, I podcast about it. Then I draw like a pathetic stick figure. And then my amazing friend, who’s an illustrator and graphic designer, brings these to life. She’s incredible. And then she and I go back and forth through so many different iterations to make sure the concept is clear, And then I always revisit them. Maybe six months, or a year or two years later, I look at it again and I’m like, “Oh we need to alter this a little bit.” I’m always getting feedback on them and making updates. So when you say an infographic I created that I posted, it helped you realize your husband’s lies about the small things. Indicated a much bigger thing, that warms my heart. Infographics Helped Me See Reality Jenna: It was so easy for me to overlook the experiences I’ve gone through that were emotionally abusive, and think, he doesn’t punch me. He doesn’t hurt me physically, but emotional abuse affects your body and spirit immensely. It’s not that bad. But when I see it in the infographic, it’s so obvious. It’s apparent what I am experiencing is emotional abuse. It’s damaging, and I’m being sucked into this abuse cycle of grooming and devaluing. It just makes it so clear for me and helps me navigate my next steps to safety. I took the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. The workbook that comes with the workshop had so many visuals and beautiful artwork. It captures the reality of my situation. It’s simple and easy to understand, and helps me digest my own experience. I appreciated that. Anne: I’m so glad to hear that. That’s awesome. I’ve taken so many trainings or workshops. And I was so confused most of the time. I always felt like, Am I doing it wrong? Is it me? And then I realized, no, it’s just not detailed. It’s unclear. It doesn’t give me a way to process it. It doesn’t give me a way to interact with it. And so just like everything else at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I test everything for years, years, and years. With the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, I first used the strategies myself to deliver my kids and myself from abuse. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t a fluke. So I duplicated that success. With other victims, we created a workshop out of it. We ran that workshop live for a few years to get feedback, to know where were victims getting stuck? What parts weren’t clear? The Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is Invaluable Anne: Then we created all the videos for the format. It’s now online, and those videos are incredible because it has visual representations for all these concepts to help women get it. And then I continue to tweak it, tweak it, and tweak it. I have a master’s degree in curriculum and instruction. So I’m obsessed with making sure the content we produce is clear and helpful. And that the services we provide are exactly what women need. Jenna: Yeah, the workshop for me was invaluable. I felt like I learned so much about specific actions I could take and specific situations. It was super helpful. Anne: I am so glad to hear that. I hear that every day from women, how much it helped them. If you’re listening and interested, you can learn more about The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. The French Fry Analogy Anne: As Jenna and I were interacting on social media, she shared something that made me realize the French fry analogy would really help her name what was happening in her marriage. This analogy illustrates why, when a husband lies about small things, it’s often evidence that something much bigger is going on. He comes up to you and says, “You know what? I have been eating at McDonald’s too much, and it’s not healthy for me. It’s bothering me. I don’t like it, so I’m just letting you know that I’m not going to ever eat at McDonald’s again, ever. You, as the supportive wife, would be like, sounds great, honey. This is not that important. You’re like, okay, you do you. Good for you. He doesn’t say anything else about it. Three weeks later, you have to use his car for something. You get in his car, you’re fumbling around with a quarter, and it falls down in a crack. And as you’re trying to get the quarter, you find a French fry. That French fry is unmistakable. It is a McDonald’s French fry. You get your quarter out, you get the French fry out, and you go to your husband and you say, “Hey honey, I lost this quarter and when I found it, I also found this French fry.” Now if he’s a super healthy person, he might say, “I know I told you I want to stop eating at McDonald’s, but I went to McDonald’s three days ago when I had that long drive. And yeah, one of them fell down in the crack. And as far as me falling off the wagon, I feel really stupid about it. AN ANALOGY FOR EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: This is not an abuse episode. The situation where he wanted to stop eating McDonald’s and then he fell off the wagon is not that big of a deal. He wasn’t trying to deceive you. He wasn’t trying to hide it from you on purpose. When you asked him about the French fry, he readily admitted he fell off the wagon and went to McDonald’s. Now let’s pretend the whole scenario is the same, but instead, when you find the French fry. And you take it to him and say, I found this French fry. He says. “I don’t know what you’re talking about, I don’t see a French fry.” And then you’re like, “This French fry, this one right here. I found this in the car.” And he’s like, “Well, one of the kids must’ve got in my car and dropped it in there.” With that same scenario, if he starts to gaslight he lies, he’s not a healthy person. Even if this is just about a French fry. Deceit, gaslighting, and turning the tables would be psychological and emotional abuse. And to take it even further, if he said, “Why are you going through my car? Why are you trying to check up on me?” Maybe even, “I never told you I wasn’t going to eat at McDonald’s. Of course, I’m going to eat at McDonald’s. Why would you even think I wouldn’t eat at McDonald’s?” So there’s the French fry analogy. How has this analogy helped you? Experiencing Your Husband’s Lies Jenna: I think it captured what was happening for me. Like you said, they were small, or they felt small at the time. When my husband lies about small things, it didn’t immediately register as something serious. Back then, I didn’t even know he was using exploitative material. He would make up stories about hobbies or abilities he actually did not have. Then, to me, he would deny he had made up those stories. So I would just let his lies go. Now I realize how big they were. But I can look back and see the pattern of different French fries I found. Anne’s EXAMPLE: WHEN A Husband Lies ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: My ex did that too. There was this period where we were at dinner parties or social events. I would look out of the corner of my eye. And he was like doing these Tai Chi moves. And he would talk to people about how much he loved Tai Chi. Like he was some kind of Tai Chi master. So after a while, I was very curious. So I said, “How do you know so much about Tai Chi?” And he kind of avoided answering me. And so I got real specific and I said, “Did you take Tai-Chi in college?” “No.” “Did you take it in high school?” “No.” “Did you take it at a gym?” “No.” “Have you read a book about Tai Chi?” “No.” “Have you ever taken a Tai-Chi class anywhere in any way, shape or form?” “No.” “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” You know how there’s like those old people in a park? “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” “No.” “Maybe on vacation?” “No.” Ah, I was dumbfounded. He lies, so I don’t know why he didn’t just lie, but in this moment, for some reason, he wanted me to know. I still don’t know why he wanted me to know, because he had no problem with lies when he wanted to. And finally, and maybe this was a lie too. He said, “I read an article about at once.” Like one article is what he said. And he lies about that? Maybe he never even read one article about it. It was crazy. So, instead of just saying, I read an article about Tai Chi and I’m interested in maybe taking a class sometime. No, one article apparently made him an expert in Tai Chi. WHEN YOUR HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS, IT’S NOT HARMLESS Anne: So if he lies about traveling to London or Tai Chi or French fries, it indicates something serious is happening, but it’s so hard for us to recognize that. Jenna: For me, I feel like I didn’t have proof. Everything inside me said something here is wrong. It is not normal that my husband lies about small things, like going on a trip to London. My brain would say he’s not using exploitative material, because he’d said he wasn’t using it. I can think of way worse things he could be doing. Maybe this isn’t that big of a deal. I think it was easy to rationalize it, to say, this isn’t necessarily a good thing, but because he’s told me he loved me, it’s still progress. Back to that upward trajectory graph in the infographic. Anne: Yeah, totally. After I was separated, I was talking to my dentist. And I said, “I didn’t realize it was abuse. I mean, he had stopped screaming and yelling in my face. And I saw that as progress.” And my dentist was like, “What? What are you talking about?” I know my dentist well. I went to high school with him. He just looked at me and he was like, “A good person would never do that”. Like ever. My dentist couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that victims are manipulated to think he lies about this one thing. He realized he couldn’t scream and yell in your face. So then he lies to you. That’s not progress. But now taking a step back, it’s a gut punch to realize that he wasn’t changing and things weren’t improving. That upward trajectory wasn’t happening. He was just changing up his abuse tactics. I Struggle To Create Safety Jenna: When I look back on my experience, I thought these little breadcrumbs were big improvements. The little things he would do I would see as progress. I imagined myself standing outside my house in a hurricane, like lightning, rain and crazy wind. My hair is flying everywhere and debris flying all around me. I imagine the storm around me being the abuse I experienced. Then I imagine putting my hands over my head, just a little bit as progress. That’s a small improvement from not having any protection, but it’s something. The only thing that created safety for me was walking to my house, stepping inside, and closing the door. I could look out the window and see the crazy storm that was going on outside, but it wasn’t hurting me anymore. I think that’s the only time I could see the abuse for what it was. Because in the moment, I felt that at least my hands are over my head, I’ve got a little protection. I didn’t understand how much danger I was in until I was safe. And I could look back and see how dangerous it actually was. Anne: Oh, I like that analogy. I wonder if part of it is the adrenaline of the chaos. Like you might not realize how cold you are until you get inside. And then you’re like, “Oh, I was really cold and miserable.” But in the moment, you’re just trying to make it down the mountain or survive. One Day At A Time Survival Mode Anne: Which is why people call abuse victims survivors. Because every day they’re surviving in this mental, emotional, and psychological life and death situation. Even if they’re still in the abuse, because they’re surviving one day at a time. We need to ask ourselves. “Wait a minute, do I just want to be in survival mode every day? Do I want to be in that type of chaos all the time? Or do I want to actually be safe and rest in my warm house with a cup of hot chocolate?” And so to help us make our way to safety, that French fry analogy comes in handy especially when a husband lies about small things. Because if something happens, we can think to ourselves, “Okay, if this were just about a French fry, would it still be severe and intense, emotional and psychological abuse?” If someone is willing to completely deny, he lies, gaslights, and blame shifts about a french fry, which is not that big of a deal. That’s a big warning sign that they are emotionally and psychologically dangerous. I want all the listeners to consider things that you may have thought, that’s not that big of a deal. When he lies and denies you had a conversation about changing the oil or picking up milk from the store. Not only is lying is emotionally abusive in and of itself, it’s only the part of the iceberg you can see, and there is a way, way more beneath the surface that you can’t see. Social Media’s Role In Figuring Out EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: Why has following Betrayal Trauma Recovery on social media, interacting with me and engaging with other women, been useful to you? Jenna: I love listening to the podcast, and getting bite-sized pieces of information. I can get on, take in one small topic, a quote, or a thought, and sit with it. It gives me something to think about and helps me understand emotional abuse in a way I can actually process, especially when my husband lies about small things. Anne: That reminds me of one of my good friends in real life. We were friends long before I started podcasting. She’d been in several abusive relationships, but for me, talking to her was always awkward. Because for her, it felt safer to pull away from the pain and not consider it could be emotional abuse. So as we would talk, I would think, “I have the perfect podcast about this. I should tell her about it.” But I would hold back as much as possible. Our sons were on the same baseball team. So we’d sit together every week and chat while our sons played baseball. And at one game, she told me about her ex, and I was thinking, “Oh, this is abuse. How can I help her understand, since she’s not interested in listening to the podcast?” She loves Instagram. So I said, “Hey, I’m on Instagram. Let’s follow each other.” And the next week at the baseball game, she was like, “Oh, I’ve been learning all this stuff. I realized my ex is abusive.” And in my head I’m thinking, I know. I’ve been trying to tell you that. I was actually a little frustrated and confused, apparently she wasn’t interested in listening to me to educate her about abuse in person. I Start Healing With Daily Instagrams & The BTR Workshop Anne: When it came down to it, the only thing that mattered to me was that she started opening up to the idea that these men she had been dating were abusive. Then I saw the beauty of it. Because she’s not into podcasts. For her, the little bite-size pieces helped her realize what’s happening when her husband lies about small things. Some women have a hard time leaning into the pain, because that doesn’t feel safe. And so just a little bit at a time is helpful to them. Every woman is different. On social media, we’re all equal. We can interact with other women who’ve been through it. Thanks for sharing that story about how my post on Instagram helped you. What else has helped you connect with yourself? Jenna The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop was super helpful. I found them healing and so sacred. They helped me connect with myself and visualize stepping into safety, when that’s scary for me in real life. It helped me visualize myself becoming empowered and accepting that I don’t know what’s going to happen. Also loving myself. There’s one where you revisit your younger self and express love. I felt like it was so healing and powerful for me. I love and value the meditations. Anne: Yeah, I remember you messaged me right after you did the, “I am just right” meditation. And you said you were crying. I assume those were good tears? Jenna: Oh, definitely. Yeah, it was the healing tears, where you just had that moment. You feel love for this part of yourself that needed that love. I just loved it. Anne: I wanted to do those betrayal meditations so that women could process their emotions differently. Which is similar with the infographics and metaphors. Abuse Education Is Available Through the BTR Podcast & Workshop Anne: Different types of content or services speak to women in different ways. I’m proud of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve created so many avenues for women to get educated about abuse. This podcast is obviously the best way to educate yourself about abuse. Because this podcast is mostly victim stories. And hearing other women’s experience. And realizing. Holy cow, my husband lies about small things, too. It’s so validating. Then having those visual representations of the concepts I teach on the podcast with the infographics on Instagram and on our social media channels is so helpful. The interaction is what makes social media so powerful. And Betrayal Trauma Recovery is the only organization that teaches the strategies of how to get to safety in such a detailed and practical way in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. And then, of course, we never leave any woman alone in this journey. To get help implementing the strategies you learned in the workshop, to get help actually applying the concepts you learn on social media or through this podcast. We have online group sessions with coaches that I personally trained. In our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, women share from the heart and get real-time face-to-face feedback from our coaches and other women in the group session. Our team is incredible. We are here for you! Our Whole Goal Is To Help Women Understand Abuse Anne: We really care, and it’s my goal and the goal of the whole Betrayal Trauma Recovery team to help every woman understand this. We don’t want anyone trapped in abuse. Like you, Jenna, you’ve been able to apply this stuff and get shelter from the storm. I’m so honored to hear your story. Thank you so much for coming on today. Jenna: Anne, thanks for all you’ve done for creating Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I love this community. It’s been so helpful to me. I’m really grateful. This episode makes sense on it’s own. However, if you want to hear more episodes with Jenna:1: Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone? – Jenna’s Experience 2: The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma3: How To Recognize Victim Blaming – Jenna’s Story4: When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight (THIS EPISODE)

When most people hear the word “controlling,” they imagine something obvious, like intimidation, yelling, locking doors, or constant threats. But often, the hidden signs husband is controlling your life are much quieter, even ordinary. They show up as concern, charm, or “helpfulness.” And sometimes, the most confusing part is this: a controlling husband may accuse you of being the controlling one. He twists reality until you start questioning your own motives, wondering if maybe he’s right. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz. By the time the patterns become clear, many women already feel stuck—trapped between who they were told he was and who he’s revealed himself to be. What Are The Signs A Husband Is Controlling? 7 Questions to Ask If your husband has ever accused you of being controlling, it’s likely that he’s the one controlling. So before I get to our guest interview, here are seven questions to help you uncover the signs husband is controlling. Does his version of romance mean, he’s just pressuring you? When you raise concerns, does he dismiss these concerns or maybe blame shift or play the victim? When you say no, does he push past it, punish you, or guilt you so that you give in? Does he lean on you to carry his load, so much that you have to put your own load on the back burner. Do his kind gestures or gifts come with strings attached? Does he act like two different people: kind in public, but demeaning in private? Have you noticed your world shrinking? Less time for hobbies, friends, family, any outside support? Control is a domestic abuse issue, so it’s not about just one incident. The key is to look for patterns over time. If you see signs husband is controlling you and need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. Transcript: How To Know If Your Husband Is Controlling in Marriage Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Candace. Candace felt nervous, so she actually prepared a written version of her story. She’s going to read sometimes, and then sometimes I’ll ask her questions. Here’s a poignant part of her story that illustrates the signs husband is controlling her. Candace: Before I knew him, he worked at the library on campus, and looked up my information on the library database, my phone number, and where I lived. He drove by my house with the excuse he had come to town for a haircut. I would say that was stalking. He would then quote Bible verses to me that a wife’s body is not her own. A wife needs to submit to her husband. I felt sick to my stomach, started questioning my own sanity, and said to myself, I’m broken. Anne: We will get to that part of her story in just a minute. Welcome, Candace. Candace: Thank you, Anne for having me. Anne: So Candace, let’s start at the beginning. How did you feel about your husband when you first met him? Candace: We met at college in my second year, and he knew me before I knew him, because he worked at the library on campus. He looked up my information on the library database, my phone number, and where I lived. Once he found my information and I was in his sight, as a good catch. He drove by my house with the excuse later he had come to town for a haircut. I would say that was stalking. In my gut, I did not want to date him, and when he first asked me out, I said no. Early Signs husband is Controlling in Dating: When Romance Comes with Pressure Candace: But the next time he asked me, he asked me for a coffee, and I said, “You need to ask my dad.” Thinking my dad would say no, and that would be the end of it. My parents raised me in a Christian home, it was kind of implied. You needed to make sure the guy asked your dad before you went out. My dad said yes, Anne: Was there something about him that you thought your dad would say, she can’t go out with this guy? Candace: In the past, I had dated some other guys, and my dad was like, no, that one’s not good. So I’m thinking my dad’s just gonna say no, and it’ll be the end of it. And I won’t have to worry about it. But my husband was a very smooth guy, and he fooled us all. When my dad met him. He thought he was a professor, a smart person and stuff. We started dating, and I began to think this is my one chance. No other guy would want me, so I better go for it. He checks all the boxes. He’s a Christian, he’s nice to me. He loves me. He’s kind, and he would come to my work and leave notes on my car. We would go to the movies. We would hang out with my friend and family. I didn’t know to look for signs husband is controlling. When we played games. he was always very attentive and wanted to do everything with me. Then one time he invited me to his house. He was renting while still in college. And he made me supper. Then afterwards, we started watching a movie. He jumped on top of me, and I thought two things. Confessions and False Hope: Signs Husband Is Controlling Before Marriage Candace: One, get off me. I just want to watch the movie. And two, but he made me supper, so I better be good. I felt I couldn’t say no to his advances. Our clothes stayed on, but I still felt so violated after that. We dated for about a year. Then we were engaged for 10 months. My soon-to-be husband confessed an addiction to pornography before we married. Beginning when he was a teenager, looking at images on his computer. But he assured me that once we married, that would go away. Because there would be no more guilt, since he had a wife and could have all the sex he wanted. I remember going to my mom and telling her about what he confessed to me. I remember her saying to me, “It would be something that I would have to deal with for the rest of my life. And was I ready to do that?” I wasn’t even sure what it meant, so I said yes, I can do this. He loves me and it’ll be okay. I soon found out that no matter how much sex I gave my husband, he was still struggling with pornography. I would say the more sex I gave him, the more he got into the pornography, and he was good at keeping it a secret from me. He was very smart and very technical. He built his own computer, so he knew all the tricks to wipe his computer of his history going to these pornography sites. From Compliance to Control: The Patterns That Shaped Me Candace: In the first few months of our marriage, My husband confessed to me. He had fallen into temptation on his computer. I said, why would you do that when I was in the bed next to you? You could just ask me and I would give you sex. I grew up in a Christian home, went to church every Sunday. My parents homeschooled my siblings and me. We lived a pretty sheltered life. We were not a touchy feely sort of family. I knew they loved me and never doubted it. I was a very compliant child who always helped everyone, especially my mom raising my younger siblings. And I was a mom to my two youngest siblings and was good at doing the laundry, cleaning and making meals. One thing that stands out for me about my childhood is that I wasn’t allowed to show my feelings. If I was angry or sad, I was told to go to my room until I had a better attitude. So going into my marriage, I was always very compliant, didn’t complain, and if something needed to be done, I would do it. I thought I was not that smart or worthy, so I should be thankful that my husband picked me. But if I looked back and thought about it, I had put myself and my brother through college. I had a job, my own car and insurance, and no debt. My dream was to always be a mom to homeschool my kids. I married for that and wanted that the whole first year into my marriage. I think it was a few weeks after the honeymoon, when my in-laws came to my husband one day and said I needed birth control. Was this evidence of signs husband is controlling? Signs Husband is Controlling You Through Rage, Manipulation, and Fear Candace: This would be too much for my husband if we had a child right away. I did not listen to them, and I got pregnant early in our first year of marriage. I miscarried in October, about 10 weeks along in my pregnancy, and I felt devastated and blamed myself. My husband was happy that I had miscarried. He didn’t have to feed and care for another person, and that hurt me all the more. My miscarriage, my husband’s rage started to come out. Rage is one of the other signs husband is controlling. I don’t remember what the fights were about, but one time he was angry about something, to the point where he was about to put his hands around my neck to choke me. Another time early into our marriage. I was so scared of his rage that I locked myself in the bathroom and called his parents to come. Once they arrived, my husband is sitting at the piano playing as if nothing would ever happen. My husband got fired from his job. His story was that he got angry about having to work late, so he did something to one of the work vehicles so it wouldn’t start. Another event that stands out in my mind while we were living in the trailer park with our neighbor beside us didn’t like us for whatever reason, and one day I decided to go over with a tin of cookies as a peace offering. My husband came with me. We went up to the door. My husband knocked, and the neighbor didn’t come to the door. So my husband yells, I know you’re in there. The neighbor answers the door, and I hand the cookies over and say something nice. When Others See The Signs Husband Is Controlling Candace: I don’t remember what my husband says, but the neighbor takes offense and closes the door in my husband’s face. At this point, he’s angry and bangs on the door. The neighbor opens the door and tells me to get my husband off their porch. All I could think was what just happened? And why did my husband become so angry? Anne: If you had to guess right now, what would you say happened with the neighbors? Candace: I think she knew something was off with my husband. She, from the get go, did not like us living beside her and renting. And if he had his vehicle over on a little patch of a grass, she would yell at him. I don’t know if she was in tune with that. Anne: Or maybe she’d caught him looking in her window? So he had told you he had a thing with pornography. Did he end up going to a program? Candace: So my husband decided to get help for his pornography addiction. Pornography is one of the signs husband is controlling. He joined an online men’s program specifically, and he had a mentor in that program. He also talked to our pastor about it, so our pastor was aware of it as well. And we also had an older couple in our church that mentored both of us. I’ll never forget, she said, “Just give your husband more sex. Why are you withholding that from your husband?” Once our fourth child was born, I went into deep baby blues, and one night I had just finished nursing and headed back to bed. At 4:45 in the morning, my husband wanted sex and just raped me. When Signs husband is Controlling Intensify Behind Closed Doors Candace: For years after, he would make jokes about it, saying 4:45, 4:45. I didn’t think it was rape at the time, I thought it was my wifely duty to make sure my husband got sex whenever he wanted. I felt used and dirty, I did not understand it at all. But in my body, I knew something wasn’t right. I discovered that anything I did tell him, he would save and then pull it out again whenever it suited him. This lack of respect for me was one of the signs hisband is controlling. We started having more fights, and it was usually around me not communicating right. He started to see a therapist for his depression, but also for our marriage. Since I didn’t communicate properly. Anne: Oh, my word, I’m so sorry. I hear these stories every day, and it’s still heartbreaking every time. It’s awful. When he started seeing the therapist, was this his idea? Candace: It was his idea, yes. Anne: As you’re sharing your story, I think many women think, well, if he would just get into a program or go to therapy, maybe we could solve our problems. Did you think that at all before he went to the program or before he went to therapy? Candace: Because he had struggled with depression, I thought he needed help. I didn’t know enough about the pornography and his secret sexual basement to know how to deal with that. So when he started going to therapists, it was just for the depression. Then he was like, maybe you should come to for our marriage, because we were starting to have more arguments and such. Anne: Okay, and when he started going to therapy for his depression. Did you think things are gonna get better? He ripped up My written Thoughts Anne: Can you take me back to your mindset back then? Not knowing what you know now, obviously, ’cause we don’t know. All of us were in that stage. I thought this therapist will help us. What was your feeling about him going to therapy? Candace: Yeah, I thought it would help. Our first session, my husband complained about me not communicating well. I thought I’m naturally a quiet person and prefer to listen to people instead of forcing my opinion. The therapist told me I was to go home and write down my thoughts that I wanted to share with my husband. The next session, these thoughts were on a paper, ready to read to the therapist. My husband and I started reading it. And I don’t remember what I had written. But my husband got so angry that he walked out of this session and left without saying a word. He was gone for about 30 minutes, and a therapist didn’t know what to do. And said to me, This has never happened to him before. It wasn’t really a shock to me, because that’s what my husband would do if he didn’t get what he wanted. He would drive off and then come back as if nothing had happened. Yet, another of the signs husband is controlling. So once my husband finally returned to the therapist’s office, the therapist said it would be best for my husband to rip up the papers I had written and throw them into the fireplace. So, my husband did that right there. It made me feel like nothing I said mattered. It was only about my husband. We also attended some conferences. One of them was about prayer. Told I needed to dwell on my husband’s good traits Candace: I had an encounter or vision that I was in a bright area with light all around. The light felt safe and warm. And then Jesus wrapped me in his arms, and I felt completely safe and at peace. He said, “I’ve got you.” My husband did not have anything like that, which I thought was so strange. Anne: Were these marriage conferences? Candace: Yeah. The first one was, the second was a conference specifically for couples dealing with infidelity and pornography addiction. And at that conference, we had a couple that mentored us. I’ll never forget what the wife of the husband mentor said to me. She gave me a notebook and said I needed to write down all the good traits of my husband and dwell on those things instead of being negative. I never did that. We are also part of a Bible study group that met once a week. We had one night the topic of forgiveness, and I asked the leader, “How long do you have to forgive someone if they keep hurting me with the same thing over and over and over again?” They didn’t have an answer for me. Back home, my husband was so upset with me. Because he said I had put it on him, and I was like, I wish I hadn’t said anything. But at the same time, I wanted to know. What do you do? And at that point I still didn’t know about signs husband is controlling and boundaries. Anne: Did you ask that in front of your husband at the time Candace: Yes, yes I did. Anne: He was there and he heard the question? Okay. Candace: But I didn’t say any names or stuff like that. I just said in general. Signs husband is controlling: every vacation my husband has a Blow up Candace: I was a busy mom looking after four kids now, homeschooling them. I did everything that needed to be done, when your husband doesn’t help with housework. He worked all day. And then came home and be on his computer or phone. If I asked him to do something, it took forever, so I became independent and did everything around the house. So it’s my job to run the house, even do the outdoor work. I did it all. I rarely left my kids alone with my husband. If I did, it was only for a short time. I took my kids everywhere with me. There were two times that he watched them. That was when my one child broke their arm walking around the outside of the trampoline. And another time, my child cut their forehead deep enough that it needed stitches. But because my husband didn’t think it was too serious, he didn’t do anything. I told my husband to take our child to the hospital to get the arm x-rayed to see if it was broken. Otherwise, it wouldn’t have been checked out. As the kids got older, we went on family trips. And every vacation, my husband had some kind of blow up over the strangest thing. One time we camped and he got all upset with me that I didn’t have my phone with me. And he tried to text me. He said he was almost going to call a missing person search on me. I was so confused since it wasn’t a big camp. I was at the beach fishing with my nephews, and why would I have my phone on me at camp? We still had fights every couple of weeks about him not getting enough texts from me. Things start to fall apart during Covid Candace: He would then quote Bible verses to me. “A wife’s body is not her own. A wife needs to submit to her husband.” It made me sick to my stomach, and I started questioning my own sanity and saying to myself, I’m broken. There must be something wrong with me. But I don’t like sex and never have our entire marriage. My husband also liked having long discussions late into the night. And sometimes even. woke me up to have a long talk about something that he felt was important to talk about. I always felt worse after the long talk and questioned myself, whereas my husband was always so happy. Things started to fall apart when COVID hit, and my husband moved back home and had a home office. He loved being at home and could come down whenever he wanted to check on us, have lunch with us, go for walks. I hated it. I was now seeing more signs husband is controlling, and he loved having control. It got so bad, He would pick all the movies he could watch, the music, we could listen to. If my friends came over, he had to sit with us and dominate the conversation. And if we went anywhere in the vehicle, he would pick the music. If I put earbuds in to listen to something else, he would get upset with me. so I wasn’t allowed to do that. He would control the temperature in the house with his phone, so if I changed it, he would put it back. I started to have conversations with my sister about what was going on and how I was feeling, Anne: Did your husband know? Candace: Yes, he’d say, “Hey, I love you. You are just depressed.” I recognize the abuse Candace: At this point, my sister starts sending me YouTube videos to watch about narcissists, and I start going down the rabbit trail. I started listening to a podcast, but something was still missing for me. And then she had you on Anne as a guest on one of her podcasts, and right away that was the piece missing. You told it like it was. Pornography is abuse, and that’s exactly what I’d experienced. I started to become a little caterpillar, eating it all up. At some point in my journey, I moved out of the bedroom and slept upstairs with my kids. I bought a mattress and just moved it around from room to room. My kids wanted to have me up there, because they started to have bad dreams. And were afraid to come out of their rooms when my husband was in the house. My husband now became a spiritual leader, and had to read the Bible to us at every meal and pray for us if we left the house. It was crazy. He said he had found the Holy Spirit, and now truly knew what it meant to be a Christian. He told me I needed to forgive and move forward, because he no longer did pornography, and I could trust him. A week later, he gets my phone and reads all my messages to see what I’ve been saying to my sister. Trust, huh? Anne: Really quick, did you tell him you were listening to BTR or tell him anything about BTR at the time? Candace: No, I did not tell him. I kept that all very quiet. Anne: Okay. Going to my husband’s therapist: signs husband is controlling Candace: My sister warned me too. She said, the more you tell him, the more ammunition he will use, because he was still seeing a therapist, and he’s just giving him more tools for his tool belt that he can use against you. Anne: Yeah, increasing tools. Candace: Then he confessed he read my phone, but it was okay if I wanted to open my own bank account. And I was like, thank you. I’m glad I have your permission now. Anne: Wow. Candace: So my husband then wants me to meet with his therapist of 15 years. And at first I said no, because he had built a relationship with him for a long time and it just didn’t feel right. I didn’t wanna repeat my words being ripped up and thrown into the fire again. But my husband persisted and said his therapist worked with couples all the time and marriage problems. So I met with his therapist without my husband, and I say to the therapist, my husband always has the right words, and no one will ever believe me. The therapist says he’s not going to be fooled. And proceeds to tell me how I need to encourage my husband and welcome him back when he punched through the door yet again. Another therapist doesn’t see it. It was only about saving the marriage at the cost of losing more of myself, to lift my husband up. I never had another session with the therapist and instead kept listening to more and more BTR podcasts. My sister warned me not to go to another session or couple session with my husband. Finally a therapist believes me Candace: And she then recommended a therapist that deals specifically with abuse. The first session I go to, I say to the therapist, “My husband Is a words guy and always has the right words to say. I can never get it right no matter what I say. And no one will ever believe me if I said I’ve been abused.” Or believe signs husband is controlling. And she shows me an apple and said, if I cut this apple on the outside, you would see all the marks I’ve made. But if I take that same apple and drop it on the floor or bang it against the table, it still looks fine from the outside. If I cut open that apple, you would see it’s all bruised inside. That is what you are going through. I said to her, “All I have to do is survive until my youngest is 18 years old.” And she says to me, after I tell her more of my story, that I probably only had about two years before my husband did something more drastic to keep me stuck. Because he’s going to realize I’m pulling away even more. And his outbursts are becoming more and more potent, and using words against me, by saying, “I promised I would stay for the kids, divorce is not an option, we’ll go bankrupt. We made a covenant before God about marriage. Are you breaking that covenant of God?” By October I found out what boundaries are, and I put it through Christ to protect myself because my body was now shaking. Or it felt like my skin was on fire, burning my flesh. my husband smashes my kid’s pumpkin Candace: I asked him not to touch me, not make comments about how beautiful I look, was that he loves me so much, stepping over those boundaries. Then he had another blow up after returning from a business trip. We had carved pumpkins. My oldest carved a Disney character from a movie. My husband said it was a devil pumpkin and wanted me to get rid of it. I refused and said it was not a devil pumpkin. My husband then took the pumpkin and smashed the pumpkin in the driveway. My oldest was devastated and confused about why he would smash that pumpkin. And not our youngest siblings pumpkin carved a witch on it. I was still sleeping upstairs and had moved in more permanently to my second oldest child. I went to my therapist again and told about the pumpkin smash and other blow ups that were happening. M y therapist said I didn’t have years, but months now before it would escalate again. So in November, my husband was on another business trip. My kids and I packed up all we could with the help of some friends and family, and moved to my parents’ house. One of the friends that helped us move commented later about how shocking it was to see my kids looking very happy. Instead of sad and crying, it’s like they knew it was bad enough. My dad and I met with my husband 5 days later to discuss things. My dad, being very insightful, put a no trespass order on his place. So, my husband could not stalk us. The Moment I See signs Husband Is Controlling Everything Candace: My dad also had my husband sign a paper that said he would continue to look after the kids and I and not cancel my credit card or my phone. My husband kept saying to my dad, people don’t understand, I don’t understand why my wife wants to leave me. My husband would send emails picking days that would work for him to see the kids, and I responded back by saying they didn’t wan to visit with him at this time. I also found my kids and I had nightmares a lot now, and I wasn’t sure what that was. Our bodies dealing with the trauma. At the end of December, I sent my husband an email saying he had three options. One, let the kids and I move back into the house, and he finds his own place to live. Two, we sell the house and both find our own places. Or three, both hire lawyers and duke it out, so to speak. He sends back that he wants to talk things out with me, and he doesn’t like to get into a legal battle. He then removes me from our joint email account, so I can no longer have access to our bank account, credit card or phone bills, nothing. And then over the next month, he removes me from other things we shared on our phones or deletes messages he sent to me on our app. and lies to me that it’s normal for things to disappear on the app after a while. Anne: When he started doing this, were you surprised? That happened to me too. It happens to so many of us. Signs Husband is Controlling: Financial Manipulation and Legal Traps Anne: But before it happened in my mind, I still hadn’t wrapped my head around what I was dealing with. So when he shut down the bank account, I was in shock. When you started seeing signs husband is controlling access to accounts, how did you feel? Candace: Yes, I was definitely in shock after he started shutting me from the email account, because I’m like, why? Why would you do that? We’ve had this joint one for years. Anne: Especially after he’s just said, Hey, let’s just talk. We can work it out. It’s like what? You’ve just said. Candace: Mm-hmm. Anne: Everything will be okay, and then you do that. Candace: Yeah, and the thing was, he said about the email too, that was an alias for mine actually. And I’m like, that doesn’t make any sense to me. Because then said, well, I’ll just forward you stuff. So he forwarded me stuff from that email address. I’m like, you can’t tell me it’s an alias for your other one. It just didn’t make sense to me. Anne: It didn’t make sense ’cause he was lying. Candace: Exactly. So in January, I go to the bank to get access to the joint account. Something was off at the meeting with the banker. And then I find out later, my husband has closed our savings account. And I only have access to the checking account. Two weeks later, I get a message from his lawyer saying I have to the end of the month to seek my own lawyer. I can’t go into detail right now. Anne: So he lies to you and says, Hey, let’s just work it out. Can we just talk? In the meantime, he is getting his own lawyer. He’s forcing the kids to visit him Anne: In the meantime, he is shutting down all the bank accounts, moving money, doing all the things. And then when he is ready, he is like, okay, now you have to get your own lawyer. But before he is like, no, let’s just chat. Everything will work out. It is deliberately lying to you so that he could prepare. Candace: Very deliberate, yeah, so I can’t go into too much detail right now. All I can say is we’re going through hell. Every step along the way has been difficult. Trying to protect my kids, who are forced to visit their dad. My husband is good at playing the victim, and he keeps saying, I have no idea. My therapist says your kids are of the age, so they can choose whether or not they go. But because I’m in this collaborative process and they say that I have told my kids that their dad is this horrible person, I need to tell my kids that he’s so lovable, and we need to go there and have a great time with your dad. Anne: It is like reunification therapy basically. Candace: It is just so frustrating right now. Anne: I’m so sorry. It’s an extension of the abuse. And he probably knew that and prepared for that, and then got you stuck in it. Candace: Yeah, and my lawyer, I didn’t share a lot of information because I knew it would get back to my husband . So probably like three or four meetings in my lawyer said, I just wanna have a talking with you one-on-one. I get the impression that this is not going right, and that you’re not happy with this process. Court ordered to send the kids to their dad’s Candace: And she’s like, I wanna hear your story. So I was like, here’s what’s happening. I said, my kids and I are trying to get out of this safe. And she says, okay, that makes a lot of sense. She is more on my side now, but at the beginning, and I was the only one in the room fighting for myself. Everybody in that room was all about my husband and what he needed, and he was just a great guy, and I had turned the kids against him. Anne: I am so, so sorry. It is awful, and it’s happening with everyone. Women trying to get to safety, can’t get to safety because they’re court ordered or put through this process that makes it worse, and they miss these signs husband is controlling. And you wouldn’t think it wouldn’t be like this, but it’s really bad right now. I am so sorry. I’m glad you know what’s going on. That is great, but it’s almost like more traumatizing to know what is going on and that you can’t get help. Candace: And it hurts so much because I’m like, this is a person I trusted. How can that person I thought I could trust be so the opposite, like my husband is lying to me. And to him, it’s all about the money and those kids. Because he cannot get to me anymore, he wants those kids. Every weekend, the kids have to go to his house. My youngest son right now, he said, Mom, I used to love weekends, and now I hate them. Here’s the other thing that gets interesting. I joined BTR and started attending the BTR sessions. I met Coach Jo, and Coach Sharon. Our family wizard works to help signs husband is controlling Candace: I also listened to the podcasts and had listened to Coach Jo’s story. Then I enrolled in the Living Free Workshop. My eyes were finally open, and I could see the signs husband is controlling as I go through all this legal stuff. And the message has been so helpful. Like you say in the workshop. And I talked with Coach Jo, my lawyer, and his lawyer recommended Our Family Wizard. My husband made a big stink about Our Family Wizard. But I was like, “No, we’re doing this Family Wizard.” I’ve sent him two messages on there, and I love it. I think it’s a great way to do parenting and figure out the scheduling and all that. I was like, this is so easy to use because I am not technical at all. Yet, my husband, who’s very technical, doesn’t want it because he is not in control. Anne: Well, it also, he has to be accountable. Every thing he writes or does is documented. And you can’t say, oh, I didn’t get it, because it says when you got it. Or you can’t say, yeah, I’m reading the messages, because it says if you read it or not. Candace: Yes, and I love that feature, ’cause I can just go in, I’m like, “Nope, he hasn’t seen it yet. Nope, he hasn’t been on yet,” But the lawyers agree with it. Then my husband went to his lawyer and said, “I’m really concerned about BTR. Because it talks about abuse and DARVO and all this stuff.” I was then told I needed to get off that. I’m not allowed to have a support group Anne: Wait, who told you you couldn’t listen to a podcast and go to a support group? Your lawyers? Candace: His lawyer, because he had said BTR was abusive. And he was really concerned, because it wasn’t teaching me good things. It was teaching me that pornography was abuse. I put it on my credit card. Anne: So quick, this issue of the credit card is a concern for many women, so we actually made a change. Any charge for our services will be listed on your statement as help.btr.org. That actually goes to a dummy wellness site, talks about hormones on there. So if your husband sees help.btr.org and he goes to that site, it doesn’t even have any information really. You can check it out. We couldn’t do a totally random site. It had to be recognizable, because for a while we did like a completely random site, and women did not recognize the charge. And then they ended up disputing, and then they were like, no, wait, I do want your services. So as she talks about this, know that now any charge for our services will be listed on your statement as help.btr.org. Which is that dummy wellness site. Getting abuse education is bad for abuse victims, apparently. Candace: Apparently, but he was allowed to have whatever group he wanted, but as soon as I had a group, oh no. That was not allowed. Yeah, it made no sense. Anne: Heaven forbid you find out what he is doing. They’re like, oh shoot, that is what I do. She’ll know exactly what I’m doing. Candace: Yes, I’m from a Christian background. Still walking and going forward Candace: I have done the meditations in the workshop to calm my body. The first one, I don’t even know what the right word is, but I could picture myself with the lights. It was so peaceful, and it felt so wonderful to have that feeling again after being in this fight and flight mode so much. Anne: I am so glad. I’m so glad you found Living Free helpful. It took me a long time to create all the illustrations. And the videos in that format. ‘Cause it’s so drastically different than anything a therapist will tell you or anything, like a court professional will tell you, they’ll, I’ll say stuff like, make sure you communicate clearly. Apparently, if you were the world’s most perfect communicator, your problems would go away with this guy. So, because it’s so drastically different, I was like I really need to do visuals so women can process it. Candace: I was like, oh, that makes so much sense now, I’m very visual. And to picture that in my mind what was happening. Yeah, and I also remember being in a group session with Coach Jo, and she said to me, “Imagine you’re walking up a mountain, but you’re like going around it because you can’t go straight up. You have to go around it. And on one side of the mountain, you’re on the light. It’s very bright, sunny, and beautiful, but on the backside it’s very dark and shadow, and sometimes we’re on the bright side and sometimes we’re on the dark side. You’re still going up.” And that has stuck with me, where I’m still walking and going forward. Signs husband is controlling: I still question myself Candace: But there are times where it is super hard and there are times where it’s like super good and I’m just like, wow. Like I’m so thankful. Anne: I think that’s another thing that Living Free really helps women understand and see signs husband is controlling. The reason it’s gonna be hard, and the reason it’s gonna be very hard, is because of their character and the way they interact. They’re in that cave and doing what they’re doing on purpose. So there’s never gonna be a time, unfortunately, where they realize that what they’re doing is hurting us because they know they’re doing it, and that was hard for me to understand. Candace: Well, I did go over it with my daughter a couple of times. Because I find that I still question myself at times and say, “Would it have been better to stay in the marriage and keep my head down?” A very close friend of mine sent me this, and I just wanna read it. She wrote, “I know how much of a struggle it can be making the hard decisions. I’m sorry, you’re having to walk the road of even having to make them. Yes, your kids are hurting, and so are you. Do you honestly think they’re hurting because you left your husband, or because of what your husband has and is still doing? Staying wouldn’t have made it any better. If your kids are getting to an age where it was obvious something was going on, it would’ve hurt no matter what. And that’s not your fault. That’s a consequence of your husband’s choice.” having Him out of my space made the biggest difference Candace: “God has you, and he is in all the details. It doesn’t make sense now, but hopefully someday it will.” That really spoke to me that day. There will be hard days, but there’s also good days ahead. Anne: It’s hard to see who they are until we actually get some distance, and then once we do, it’s so shocking. It’s hard for our eyes to process it. I felt like, and I’m not sure if you feel like this. Even though it’s so hard right now, at least not having him in my space, it made the biggest difference. Candace: Yes. The biggest thing for me is now that I’m out of that and living here. I feel okay with myself now. Anne: Oh, that’s great. Also to know that you were always okay, and there was never anything wrong with you. You just needed to get away from the harm. The thing that was hurting you would stop. You didn’t have to go through a year of therapy, and so many women who are going through therapy or some kind of program or whatever, with this abusive man thinking they’ve got something wrong with them that they need to work on.They might have some things that aren’t healthy that they may be doing as a result of being abused, but safety is the treatment. Candace: Right, yes. Anne: Candace, I appreciate you taking the time to share your story. Thank you so much. Candace: Thank you so much for having me on.

Have you noticed that your husband now criticizes the very traits he once loved? Narcissists groom victims by presenting themselves as safe, loving, and trustworthy at first, to gain trust and lower a woman’s defenses before causing harm. When women understand three common ways narcissists groom victims, they can begin to see what’s really happening. Grooming often works quietly. Emotional abusers use a cycle of praise, pity, and confusion to keep women questioning themselves instead of questioning his behavior. This is why grooming feels good at first, because the intent stays hidden until the damage is already underway. To know if it’s grooming, you’ll also need to know if he’s using any one of these 19 different emotional abuse tactics. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out. 1. Narcissists Groom Victims With Compliments He’ll Later Use To Attack You Narcissists groom victims with compliments that feel personal and sincere. Early on, they pay close attention to what matters to you, what you feel good about, and what you’re insecure about. Later, they use those same things to criticize, confuse, or control you. This is why many women don’t see red flags before a relationship or marriage begins. At first, it feels like he truly sees you and appreciates who you are. Over time, you realize that what felt like love and admiration was actually preparation. 2.Narcissists Groom With DARVO DARVO means Deny, Attack, and then Reverse the Victim and Offender roll. This is when someone who is truly hurting you claims that you are hurting them. 3. Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories Playing the victim is a common tactic narcissists groom victims with. The truth is that many, many people have had traumatic childhoods and it’s not a reason to abuse anyone. In fact, many people with traumatic childhoods are the healthiest people you’ll ever meet. Abuse is a choice. When a narcissist says he’s lying (or any other abusive behavior) because of his traumatic childhood, he’s just trying to groom you into thinking he has a good reason or excuse. He’s also trying to make you feel sorry for him. He’s NOT choosing to be a healthy person. If he was, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. To hear Chelsea’s entire story, read on or listen to the full podcast episode above. Full Transcript: 3 Ways Narcissists Groom Victims Anne: Today, I’m joined by a member of our community. We’re going to call her Chelsea. Chelsea shares how her husband was grooming her in ways she couldn’t see at the time, and how his true character revealed itself gradually. It wasn’t obvious cruelty at first. He was charming, praised her, and even showed empathy. As Chelsea shared her story, I noticed three familiar ways narcissists groom victims in the things her husband did repeatedly to confuse her. I want to briefly name these so you can listen for them as the conversation unfolds. First, early compliments that later became weapons. Traits he admired at the beginning were eventually used to criticize.Second, DARVO—deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender. When confronted about harm, he claimed he was the one being hurt.And third, sob stories designed to pull empathy, which later became excuses for harmful behavior. So listen for these as Chelsea shares her story. Welcome, Chelsea. Chelsea: Hi. I’m so glad to be here. Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped me so much. Anne: When you first met your husband, or maybe when you first got married did you recognize his behaviors as abuse? Chelsea: No, I definitely didn’t. I guess everything’s hindsight 20/20, but at the time I was a single mom of two kids myself, so I don’t know if it was just insecurities. It happened slowly, and it circled around insecurities I had so I didn’t really notice it at first. Anne: When did you start recognizing like something’s not quite right? 1. Narcissists Groom By Giving Compliments They Will Later Attack You With Chelsea: I would say it was like, a few months into dating. I guess the biggest thing for me was all the things he originally complimented me about or liked about me, he made comments about that in a derogatory kind of way. So, I guess that’s why they recognize it as abuse. I remember being emotionally distressed but not really understanding why. Anne: So, he kind of changed his tune? So, I’m just using this as an example. Maybe he said you’re so beautiful, I’m so attracted to you, and then later maybe he was like you’re not attractive to me. Chelsea: Yeah, a couple of examples early on where I was single and I have a really good co-parenting relationship with my ex-husband. I had the perfect situation for me, I had my kids during the week and on the weekends. I was 25 years old back then; this was five years ago, and I kind had the best of both worlds. I’m a very social butterfly, life of the party kind of person and I love to wear red lipstick. That’s just a small example because he did end up using that against me a lot. It was like one of those weird off to the side things, but stuff like that. He complimented me that I am so fun, and he likes how I do my makeup and stuff like that. And then even like how I am a good mom. Then fast forward a few months, it all slowly started going downhill. He started saying things like you have children at home, why are you acting like this? And why do you wear makeup like that? That’s really how the very beginning of it started. Recognizing The Abuse Anne: This is the first way narcissists groom victims, by giving us compliments. And we’re so grateful to have someone see us. Notice us appreciate us. Then later they use those same things that they once complemented us about against us. So later they weaponize what they learn about us, and then they use the thing that they complimented us about against us later. These narcissist husbands don’t want us to leave. Which is such a betrayal. So many victims don’t see any red flags before they get into a relationship or marriage, because the grooming is so specific to us. They’re very good at manipulating us to feel like they truly see and appreciate us in the beginning. Then they purposefully compliment us, then later weaponize it. So at the time, were you thinking, okay, once we’re married, then he’ll go back to realizing how great I am. Chelsea: Yes and no. I got getting pregnant about a little less than a year of dating, and that was a whole fiasco. Right before I getting pregnant, I tried to cut it off. It took me years to realize it was abuse. So that definitely never really came into my mind, but it was so emotionally tumultuous. I don’t know if that is a good word to use. I was like I can’t do this anymore. The way he would degrade me or like the way fights would go. I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. And then that cycle of abuse was already in play. That wasn’t really any different than after we were married, but I tried to break up with him. Narcissists Groom Victims Off & On To Keep Them Hooked I actually moved away, a couple hours away, for a job. This will help me cut it off because it’s really hard to cut things off with an abuser. To me that was like my way; you know, emotionally I was having a hard time cutting it off because he would always come back around. I thought if we’re physically not in the same place this should be good. Well, he came to visit me on the weekends. It would always be this big whole thing. Narcissists groom victims using the cycle of abuse, and that definitely was happening still. Then I ended up finding out I was pregnant. https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco In hindsight, I tell the story sometimes now; I have multiple kids and this instance was like the only time I remember just like falling and sobbing on the floor. At the time, I just had started this new job, I was trying to start this new life. I think it was more of that subconscious knowing that what was really happening underneath all of it was the abuse I was going through. How that was just going to make it so much worse, and it did. Anne: So, you were married because you were pregnant, essentially? Chelsea: Basically, yeah. Like he ended up begging for me back and like wanting to make it work and of course, add a pregnancy in there and you’re already vulnerable. Like in these cycles, at least that’s how it was for me, these cycles come around and add a pregnancy in there and it’s like, I really want this to work now. Horror Honeymoon With an Abuser I already have two other kids. I don’t want to have another kid and be a single mom. At that point, I still really wanted to be with him, but I was like fighting that war with myself. I just wanted to believe him when he said he wanted to make it work. So yeah, we ended up getting married, and even our wedding night was just horrible. Anne: A lot of people have horror honeymoon stories or wedding night stories. Yeah, that’s awful. So, you’re married and you’re pregnant. So many victims of emotional and psychological abuse, try to resist the abuse. By trying to stop it through common marriage advice, like loving serving, forgiving. Like being more understanding, thinking that if they act differently, it will protect them from the abuse. It’s a really common form of resistance to abuse. What was your experience with this type of resistance to the abuse? Chelsea: So, we end up getting married after the baby was born, he was a few months old at the time, because all this whole drama played out for a while before I ended up moving back and everything. But I didn’t notice, I moved back and that’s when I quit my job and like pretty much left my career. I had a corporate career at that point, to be with him and be a stay-at-home mom. That’s like really what I thought I wanted at the time. Anne: Yes, that is common, narcissists groom victims by making them dependent on them. Really quick, what’s his job? Chelsea: He’s in the military. Anne: Okay, so he’s got a stable, respectable job. Narcissists Groom By Making Them Fully Dependent On Him Chelsea: Yes, and that was used against me all the time. So then things really turned once I was fully dependent on him. That’s when things got even worse. At that point, we did some counseling and things like that, just like typical stuff. It’s crazy looking back on it now because, I don’t know what I was thinking. I think I really was just going through the motions. I don’t know any other way to describe it. Anne: What did he seem like to the counselors? Did he seem like a really upstanding good guy to the counselors? Chelsea: Yeah, and even through the years, like he will admit that he has “problems,” it would always be like yes, I have problems but it’s not me. As ironic as that is, you know what I mean? Anne: If you just love me for who I am and help me out, but they’re your fault, because you’re not understanding and because you’re not patient and because you’re not forgiving or something. Narcissists Groom By Blame Shifting Chelsea: Or he would always blame my family because he came from like a very well-off family, and I didn’t. So, he always tried to make it seem like you know, I have a lot of trauma from my childhood. Which I feel like that plays into it, at least for me personally, and ending up in a situation like this, to begin with. He would use that against me. Like well, you’re the one who has mental health issues. You’re the one who has trauma. Like it’s clearly not me, the only issues I have is, you know, the cheating or the prostitutes or whatever the case may be. Like, you are the one who is basically “crazy.” That was just really hard because I think in a way, I believed it. Anne: Yes, narcissists groom victims by blame shifting. So, when did you recognize that this was abuse? Chelsea: Oh, gosh, you know, not until probably the last six months to a year before I ended up leaving, which was earlier this year. I didn’t realize it was actual abuse. This is something he would say too, I was abusive. I’m not an abuser. Anne: I play tennis, but I’m not a tennis player. The “Toxic” Lie That Narcissists Use To Groom Victims (& Therapists) Chelsea: Yeah, then he would even be like and, a lot of things he would say to like multiple marriage counselors we went to over the years were like, well, I used to be the abusive one but now we’re equal. Now we’re just toxic because we’re equal. Like that really came into play the last couple of years before I ended up leaving. Anne: Because an abuser would never admit that he’s abusive. Chelsea: Yeah, I think that’s part of it. Anne: Then they believed him, right. You know what, this is a catch-22 because they admit they’re abusive, and suddenly they’re like a saint. Wow, this is a man who can really be honest and stuff. In that way, you’re thrown under the bus because it’s like he’s changed what’s wrong with you? And then if they won’t admit it, and they just present as this really great guy, then they also are like, he’s a great guy. Like it’s a lose-lose. Either way, the woman isn’t believed. It’s a toxic lie narcissists groom victims with. When Therapists Don’t Call Out Abuse Chelsea: Yeah, and I will tell you something that happened when I was pregnant before we got married, and I was going to counseling or like therapy. I wish sometimes that they would call it for what it is. My therapist made it known that she did not like him, like as much as she could in a professional way, you know. In hindsight, I’m thinking why didn’t she just tell me that was abuse? Instead of telling me, that’s not okay. You know, she was very adamant about that, I could see the conviction in what she said. But now in hindsight, why didn’t you just tell me I was being abused? At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, there’s a lot of validation in group whenever I would have a situation the BTR coaches would tell me “this is what’s happening.” That was very validating for me. Anne: Yeah. That’s what we do here at BTR. Validate. How did you find BTR? Chelsea: The podcast. Anne: So you start listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. And then did you start attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions? Chelsea: I binge listened the podcast and I was like, Oh, this is my life. I knew I needed something to help me. So then I went to BTR Group. I tell everyone about BTR Anne: You mentioned, it was really validating to attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because the coaches were saying. This is abuse and you found that to be really validating and helpful. Why do you think having a group of women who really understand what you’re going through is so helpful for healing? DARVO Is A Way Narcissists Groom Victims Chelsea: I remember, I think my first session, I don’t even remember the incident that was happening, but I told one of the coaches. What was happening and they were like, that’s DARVO. And I’m like, I don’t even know what that is. And then when she told me, I was like, oh my gosh, like my mind was like blown because I was like, this happens to me constantly. How did I never know there was a term for this? That gave me strength because they would label things . Anne: So this is the second way that narcissist groom, their victims. To deny that they’re abusers then to attack their victim. And then to claim that they are the victim and there’s an acronym for this and it is DARVO. So DARVO stands for DENY, ACCUSE (Or ATTACK), and then REVERSE the VICTIM and OFFENDER ROLES for example. Prominent people who are accused of rape, Bill Cosby is a good example. Someone accuses him of rape. He denies that it happens. Then he attacks the victim and says, no, no, no, she’s just trying to get money. She’s just trying to get attention. I’m the victim here because she’s trying to ruin my life. So the victim offender role gets reversed. So again, deny, attack, and then reverse the victim and offender role. This is the second grooming tactic of a narcissist. that we’re going to talk about today. BTR Group Sessions Can Help You Process Trauma & Abuse Chelsea: Yeah, now that I talk to more people about this openly, I say the same thing. I think that’s what it got to. It was like I could tell him he was abusive all day long, you know, that went on for 6-12 months after I put a label on it, and that didn’t really help because he would just deflect like he did everything else before I put a label on it. I do feel like there’s a lot of validation, when I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, whenever I would have a situation in group, and they would tell me what it was, that was really validating for me. This is what’s happening, and it’s like okay. Because they make us question our reality so much. Anne: I just want women to know that like, you don’t need someone else to tell you, although yes, it’s helpful, that’s what we do here at BTR. It’s abuse, it’s abuse, it’s abuse all day long. Because I’m like, I just wish women had that inside of themselves, but I’m so grateful that we’re here to help validate. Chelsea: I think that goes hand-in-hand with the narcissist thing. Like people always want to know is he a narcissist? And I’m like well, it doesn’t really matter. The label doesn’t matter because how is he treating you? I Get To Decide if I Want to Be In This Situation Then I kept going through the process of moving out and everything, and something aside from the support and everything. Hearing everyone’s stories was really impactful for me, because I realized I didn’t know what the goal was. I knew it was supportive, but I didn’t know like how it would be. Once I saw that they aren’t really persuading you to do one thing or another, and it’s more about making your own decisions and deciding for yourself what you want to do or what’s happening. Hearing other people’s stories and realizing wow, I get to decide if I want to still be in this situation 5, 10, 20 years from now or not, you know. That was very enlightening for me, hearing other people how long they had to go through it. Like, that was a real wake-up call for me. Anne: I think that’s one reason why women are afraid to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group they’re afraid that if they find out it’s abuse, or if they acknowledge it’s abuse, that they’ll have to get divorced from this narcissist. For example, and they’re just not quite ready to do that yet. Or some other version of that where they feel like they’ll go down a road they don’t really want to go down. A lot of women worry about that. What would you say to a woman who’s concerned about that? Find Validation in the BTR Group Sessions Chelsea: From my experience, I mean, I can’t say because like I had already planned on leaving when I did join, but from the stories I saw, I remember just really seeing how people could find even that little bit of safety. Like, no they weren’t ready to leave or maybe they don’t want to leave at all and knowing they could have support. Their feelings are valid, what they’re going through is valid, and even just finding the strength to be able to stand up for themselves or self-care. I always remember them asking what our self-care was for the day, and I remember being like I don’t know, I don’t ever do self-care, you know. It’s so important even when you’re in that situation, you’re so like spun out trying to survive and like keep your head above water. It’s like a breath of fresh air to be in a group where you’re understood and validated. Regardless of if you are planning to leave or not. Anne: We wanted to make sure it was safe for everyone, no matter where they are in their process and no matter what their goals are at BTR. Our goal is safety. We just want to help women feel validated and make their way to safety in whatever way that it looks like for them. So that’s our goal here. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop is to help women gain safety. Narcissists Groom Victims With Gaslighting From your perspective, why do you think it takes so long to understand that you’re being abused? Maybe someone is pointing it out to you. Why do you think it takes maybe someone saying hey, that’s abuse for victims to understand that they’re being abused? Chelsea: For me personally, I think it’s the art of gaslighting or the manipulation involved where for so long before anyone has even become aware. Maybe you nobody knows this is what you’re going through. Narcissist husbands use gaslighting to groom victims. The abuser told you that it’s you. I wish I could tell more people because anyone I talked to their first thing has always been go to marriage counseling and I’m like marriage counseling was so detrimental for me. It’s was like we go into session talking about the infidelity or like, the abuse, and everything, and somehow, we ended up talking about forgiveness and the five love languages. Anne: I hate The Five Love Languages. That’s so funny that you say that. Anytime I hear somebody talking about his love language is this or my love language. I am like, ugh, throw that book in the garbage. Chelsea: That can end up being used. Basically, just that you’re not giving me enough of this, so I treat you this way. When Narcissists Groom Therapists Anne: Yeah, this is my love language, and I deserve it. Right? Or I’m entitled to this because it’s my love language. Of course, they’re always going to say their love language is sex. Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I’m just like, how did we start these sessions with this, and five weeks, six, eight weeks later we’re talking about how I need to forgive, or I need to put more positive bids into our marriage or just any of these marriage counseling things. I’m like this never; none of this got to the root of the problem. Anne: It’s nonsense when it comes to abuse, but the weird thing is, marriage counselors in general don’t assess abuse first. They just literally go right into positive communication or let’s do a date night every week or you know, whatever. If it really was an abuse situation, which all of these are, there’s no way you’d be telling somebody to go on a date with their abuser every week or even do the other things they say. It’s literally crazy. Narcissists Groom Victims With The Unwitting Help Of Therapists And Counselors Chelsea: To me, it’s the opposite of safety. You’re asking me to be vulnerable and to forgive someone who has not shown me that they’re a safe person. Anne: Or trust someone who’s completely untrustworthy. Chelsea: Yeah. They end up using that against you because, they’re the marriage counselor so you need to work on this. It’s like they bring up this list of things the marriage counselor told you to do and they’re not even working on whatever they told them to do. Anne: Well, it’s hard to tell them what to do, because it’s like, don’t cheat. And they’re like, well, I haven’t cheated since I did last time, and I’m not going to do it again. So, what else can you say. That’s it. Chelsea: Have more positive communication or whatever. I think that’s what makes it go on for so long. It feels almost like a video game or something. Like, you have to go through all these levels before you’re like okay, I’m not dealing with this anymore. That’s how it feels to me. He made it seem like that too. Like, when they’re in the bargaining phase or whatever, they just start begging you to try one more time or try something different. So, it’s like, how many levels do I need to go through before this just isn’t going to work? Narcissists Groom Victims As Part of the Cycle of Abuse Anne: That’s part of grooming. It gives you hope that change might be possible, right? Or they’re willing to work on it. It’s essentially just a grooming tool to hook you . Grooming is what is confusing all women about the abuse. There are these times where they “genuinely” want to work on it they’ll go to therapy, or they seem to understand. They have these moments of what Looks like true introspection where they apologize and “I know how much I’ve hurt you and I don’t want to break our family up and, this is the most important thing to me in the world” all that is is grooming and grooming is abuse. I think people are seeing like, okay, it was good. I think people are seeing like okay, it was good, and then it was bad. We were happy and he was nice, and then it was awful. They’re not recognizing that that nice part, that good part, that part that he’s “understanding it” or he’s cherishing you is abuse too. Chelsea: This is my case, but I also think it’s a lot of people’s. The abuser doesn’t think they’re doing that or see that they’re doing that. So, it’s like unintentional. It’s almost like I can’t call that abuse because he’s not doing it intentionally. Anne: So, this is confusing, right? Because you’re like, this is good. They were nice, they were kind, so are they good? Narcissists Groom In Order To Maintain Control Anne: An abuser’s goal is never real peace. An abuser wants control. He wants something from you. That’s the difference. In those moments when he seems genuinely caring—when he sounds interested, repentant, or emotionally present, it can feel convincing. But there are strings attached. There is always a goal. He becomes especially kind, attentive, and affirming when he wants something—sex, compliance, admiration, forgiveness, or access. That goal-oriented kindness is what makes it grooming. Narcissists groom victims by using affection as a tool, not as a reflection of who they truly are. Once he gets what he wants, the tone shifts. Devaluing follows. Sometimes discarding follows. That’s because the connection was never about mutual care, it was about extraction. Genuine love doesn’t work that way. When someone truly cherishes you, their kindness doesn’t depend on getting something from you. They don’t turn affection on and off based on access or advantage. They think you’re amazing whether or not they benefit. There’s no hidden agenda, just appreciation. That absence of strings is the difference between grooming and real love. Narcissists Groom Victims To Protect Themselves & Exploit” Anne: When you say that they don’t intend to hurt me or they don’t intend to be abusive, right? So, a lot of people will be like well, they don’t know they’re abusing me, so how can it be abuse? That’s not what defines abuse. What defines abuse is that it’s harmful to someone else. So, they don’t have to know what they’re doing in order for it to be harmful to you. The abuse is the harm. It’s not necessarily their intent. But if their intent is completely selfish and goal-oriented then it’s exploitative, and it’s abusive. For example, their intent might be I just don’t want her to know the truth because if she found out the truth, she would kick me out of our apartment. So, the intent is not to get kicked out of the apartment. They’re not thinking, I’m going to abuse her, I’m going to lie. The only thing they’re thinking is, I don’t want to get kicked out of the apartment. So, their intent is to deceive so that they can maintain their entitlements so that they can exploit you and so that they can maintain their status. None of that is ever thinking oh, I’m going to abuse her on purpose. Narcissists groom victims to protect themselves and exploit. Chelsea: That was so good because that’s something in so many conversations I’ve had. What happens when, you said like getting kicked out of the apartment. When that conversation is more like I don’t want to lose you? Because I think that one’s really hard because then there’s the implied value as their spouse or partner or whatever. A Narcissist Does Not See His Victim As A Person Anne: In moments like that, when he says, “I don’t want to lose you,” it’s important to understand what that really means. An abuser doesn’t see his victim as a whole person. He sees a collection of things he wants—sex, domestic labor, financial stability, access to children, or social standing. Narcissists groom victims by making them believe this is love and care. So, when they say I don’t want to lose you, what they’re saying is I don’t want to lose it. I don’t want to lose someone who’s going to vacuum the floor, or lose any money and have to pay you alimony or child support or anything. I don’t want to lose the privilege of looking like a great guy at church and showing up on Sunday with my wife and kids, my reputation. My guess is if you really pressed this and said what is it about me specifically that you don’t want to lose? I don’t really think they would be able to answer it. I don’t recommend people asking questions like that because they could come up with an amazing answer and all you’re doing at that moment is handing your abuser a shovel to further groom you with. The abuser is in a trench, they’ve dug it through their own viewpoint, and they’re really entrenched in there. We never want to give them a shovel to dig themselves any deeper into that trench. Questions like that are going to just be handing them a shovel. They’re either going to groom you more or they’re going to abuse you in some way, devalue you in some way. Either way, it’s abuse to you and it’s an unsafe situation. It’s Not Your Fault You would know if they valued you already, you would feel it. If they really genuinely valued you, and it would be consistent over time. You would not have abuse and then grooming and then abuse and then grooming. You wouldn’t feel like you were married to Jekyll and Hyde. Chelsea: Yeah, that’s what was hard for me for so long. I thought this vulnerable victim-part of himself that he would show me with him, and then start getting the whole picture and that all was part of him. The big part for me, I know everyone’s different. I stayed so long because I in a way I guess I was codependent and that I felt bad that he suffered so much, that he had these issues. And I’m sure there was a lot of grooming as well. Anne: Yeah. Well, think about like a girlfriend who’s been through really hard times who is like a good friend of yours. Like she’s kind, she’s supportive, she validates you. She does not use her difficult story or her difficult upbringing as a weapon to abuse you or to excuse her mistreatment of you. She doesn’t use it to try and get people to feel sorry for her. Her response to her trauma was post-traumatic growth where she was like, you know what I’m going to go to college, and she’s just an incredible, amazing person. There are so many people who have had very difficult situations in the past, they’ve had trauma in their childhood, and they don’t abuse other people. They make really good choices. They think that is not the kind of life I want. Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories So let’s stop right here to point out this third way to recognize how a narcissist groom. Number three is that they try to get people to feel sorry for them. They want to say, “ell, I was abused as a kid and my life was really hard. I know someone who went through that, and they don’t abuse their wife. None of that is a reason. Think about yourself. You went through a very difficult situation, and maybe your upbringing was bad, I’m just saying the general you, and do you lie and manipulate people? We just need to remember that all these sob stories, told in this context, narcissists groom victims with sob stories. That’s their only purpose. The purpose is to make people feel sorry for them so they can get away with bad behavior. Chelsea: Yeah, for sure, and he groomed me very early on, but I told you how it all started. Well, I would say a month or two even before that was when the grooming began. In hindsight, where he started opening up about his childhood and stuff. Or things he had done in the past, like with his ex-wife that brought him so much shame. All this other stuff he said and cried and everything. And now, I’m like a major red flag, major red flag, but in hindsight that was clearly when the grooming began. It’s A Red Flag When They Start The Relationship With a Sob Story Anne: Exactly. Narcissists groom victims by getting people to feel bad for them. So that’s another thing for all the listeners, is that if you start the relationship out with them trying to get you to feel bad for them, then you can just stand up and get an Uber and go home. You don’t want to start there. If you’re early in your healing and you lead with how victimized you’ve been when you show up on a date, that can work against you. I’m not talking about getting validation at BTR or with close girlfriends, those spaces matter. I’m talking specifically about how you present yourself to someone you’re interested in dating. That’s dangerous because then they’ll be like, oh, I can just tell them I’ll never do that to you, and I’ll never leave you and that is like giving someone a shovel. They groom victims by telling them they would never do that. I would say abstain from dating while you’re feeling that vulnerable until you can get strong enough that you would never lead with that in a relationship. Chelsea: We don’t realize that it’s grooming even from day one. I Am Whole. I Am Working My Way To Healing Anne: A great way to start a date would be like my life is great. I love it. Even if it’s not. Then people are like well, you know you’re not vulnerable or whatever. But I’m just saying get yourself to your place where you feel like I am whole, I am working my way to healing, I’m doing really well. That is a good place to start dating from, I think. Rather than I’m trying to date to get someone to help me or I need something. I think that’s just too vulnerable of a place for us especially when we’re in trauma. That it just sets us up for more victimization. Chelsea: Yeah, that’s so good. I’ve done a lot of deep dives on my own story, you know, over time, and I still have revelations like all the time about things I’ve been through. Anne: Even now, like seven years later, I’m still getting insights about like, why did I think that, or this is what was really happening. There are insights that we have over time where we’re like oh, that conversation wasn’t even about that. Narcissists Groom with Misdirection One thing I’ve come to recognize is that my ex would pick fights with me late at night, then leave the house claiming he needed to cool down. At the time, I believed that explanation. Now I’m certain that wasn’t why he left. He left because he had something else he wanted to do. I don’t know exactly what that was, maybe acting out sexually, maybe something else entirely, but I do know this: he needed an excuse to leave. So he created one. He picked a fight so he could justify walking out. In the moment, it felt real. It felt like an actual conflict. Looking back, I can see there was nothing to fight about. He manufactured the conflict to make his exit look reasonable. That’s one way narcissists groom victims through misdirection. They create a false reality so you focus on the argument instead of questioning why it’s happening at all. Many women experience this. They think, He’s not attracted to me, or I upset him and he stormed out. They don’t realize he may have decided he wanted to leave and simply needed a trigger. Maybe he criticized her cooking, knowing she’d react, so he could say, See? I need to go. Chelsea: Yeah, I felt that it definitely happened to me a few times. I don’t know what he was doing, but that’s a very good point. BTR Group Sessions Can Help You Anne: Do you have anything you’d want to share with women who might be hesitant to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions—or who are listening for the first time and wondering, Is this really for me? Maybe they’re thinking this sounds extreme, or they’re not sure it even counts as abuse, especially since narcissists groom victims in ways that don’t look harmful at first. Chelsea: I get like being hesitant because I think it’s like admitting it, admitting this as a problem. It’s almost like taking a huge step in itself, and maybe that’s where the resistance comes from, but for me, it was just so helpful. There were times when an incident would happen, and I’d have to wait a week so my therapist, or maybe some don’t even have a therapist. Maybe your friends or family don’t know what’s going on. I know I didn’t always want to be calling them every time something happened. I remember it was once I finally, joined, it what a relief to know anytime there’s an incident I could get on the same day. Sometimes I didn’t even need to talk about it, but being in that space where I felt safe and not alone. It’s such an isolating experience to be going through this. Even just sitting and listening helped because it made me not feel crazy. It made me not feel so alone. Support The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Anne: Our community is incredible, and I always say that when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany. When one of us gets to safety, it makes it better for everyone. We’re all working on deliverance together. And together, we can make this world a safer place, starting with our own home and then spreading it out to other women across the globe. I’m so grateful that you found us, and I’m grateful that shared your story. Thank you so much. Chelsea: Thank you for having me. Anne: If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. Until next week, stay safe out there.

If you’re searching for a support group for marriage problems because your husband’s behavior is starting to scare you, or because traditional counseling hasn’t helped, you’re in the right place. Most women who find BTR begin exactly where you are right now: scared, unsure, and trying to figure out who they can safely talk to when their marriage feels confusing or frightening. But here’s what almost no one tells you: Not every support group for marriage problems is emotionally safe for women. Not every counselor understands. And not every institution knows how to help you. Today’s episode explores why the struggle to find the right type of support group for marriage problems is actually a systemic issue. You’ll hear from sociologist Dr. Nicole Bedera, whose research exposes how universities often fail women who are scared, even if they follow every “correct” path to get help. And then you’ll meet Haley, a woman whose college experiences mirror what so many married women face in counseling offices, churches, Title IX, and even courtrooms. Their stories may not be about marriage directly, but the patterns are heartbreakingly similar, where women are seeking help blamed or minimized told to “be fair” to the man who hurt them pushed into silence left without the clarity or support they needed If you’ve been wondering where to turn, or what kind of support group for marriage problems can actually help, here are five truths from this episode that will help you find the right support. 1. A Support Group for Marriage Problems isn’t usually Built for Clarity A lot of marriage-based groups focus on: communication skills mutual responsibility serving each other But since you’ve already tried these things, more of it likely won’t help clarify what’s actually going on if you’re confused about what’s going on in your marriage, 2. If You’re UnSURE what’s Going On With Your Husband, It’s Likely Not A Marriage Problem Women often think: “He isn’t always like this.” “I’m probably overreacting.” “He’s stressed. Maybe that’s all this is.” But confusion is information. Your body senses something is amiss before your mind has language for it. Any support group for marriage problems or helper who tells you you’re “too sensitive” or “too emotional” is not equipped to help you. 3. Institutions Often Protect the Person Hurting You This is the clearest thread between Nicole’s research and the stories we hear from married women every day. When women are confused, universities, churches, pastors, counselors, or courts, don’t support women who need answers. They act as a mediator between two parties, but if he’s lying, it will just be more of the same. The best support group for marriage problems will break this pattern and give you clarity, without you having to communicate with him more, especially since communicating with him hasn’t cleared up confusion in the past. 4. WHEN Manipulative Men Use Systems to Their Advantage, a support group for marriage problems is essential This is one of the hardest truths women aren’t told, but one of the most important. When a woman is confused by her husband, it’s usually because he’s lying to her and … charming counselors throwing her under the bus with church leaders appearing calm while you appear shaken using systems to make you look “unstable” or “dramatic” That’s why Haley’s story matters for married women too. Her abusers used university structures the same way husbands use counseling or clergy, to stay in control and keep the woman quiet. A safe support group for marriage problems knows these patterns and can help you navigate them. 5. The Best Support for Marriage Problems Is Confidential A true support group for marriage problems should: protect your confidentiality help you trust your instincts give you clarity never push you toward something that scares you Women deserve to have clarity about what’s going on, long before they ever step into a counseling office or try to get help from an institution that may not understand. We understand and you can receive live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session As You Listen to This Episode… Notice how both women in these interviews talk about trying to get help in all the “correct” ways and how each system responded, they were… doubted blamed minimized If marriage counseling, recovery programs, support groups for marriage problems, religious leaders, Title IX offices, or courts have left you confused or unsafe, today’s episode will help you understand why. If you need clarity in your marriage, here’s my Clarity After Betrayal workshop. Transcript: When You Don’t Know Where To Turn For Help Anne: We’re gonna start with Dr. Badera. She’s a sociologist, an author of the book, On The Wrong Side: How Universities Protect Perpetrators and Betray Survivors. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivor trauma. Nicole puts her work into practice at the Center for Institutional Courage. After I get done talking to Nicole, I’ll have Hailey share her story. Welcome Nicole. Nicole: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. Anne: I’m excited too. Listeners to this podcast are trying to get clarity after betrayal. They often start by searching for a support group for marriage problems. And most of the time, they can’t get clarity because the people they go to to get help aren’t able to help them because they don’t know what’s going on. Your work focuses on students trying to get help on college campuses, but I think it really intersects. Because in both cases, they don’t get the information or support they need. Can you talk about your research? Nicole: I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report to most of the Title IX office most of the time. You might have heard about it in the news.  It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years, but it’s quieted down quite a bit recently. I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases. So in that setting, all knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot. Especially since a lot of this stuff is just made to feel normal for women. Seeking help through the Title ix office parallels seeking a support group for marriage problems Nicole: There’s this idea that this is what you should expect when you go to college. And so there were some that they weren’t sure what was going on, but they knew that something had affected usually their education. Or they felt unsafe, unsettled, and they ended up in my study because they went to their school for help. Either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus, can help survivors with whatever they need, but many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator. Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. So they’re trying to coordinate to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that. Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to try to seek some kind of safety or justice. But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve considered going to for help. Anne: When a woman has a situation where she needs help, but she doesn’t quite know where to go to find help, it’s so heartbreaking for me. I see this often with wives trying to figure it out after their husband’s betrayal. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery, trying to figure out how can I start to feel safe again in my marriage. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is just so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? Like what do you mean she feels unsafe and what are we supposed to do about it? The Primary concern of the title ix office Nicole: There are a couple of issues that we run into. One of them is that a lot of the systems that we think are going to help, won’t help. If you think about a college campus, for example. Students are told, if you’re experiencing sexual violence, sexual harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination, come to the Title IX office and they will help you. But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with. Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator. Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help if the school would, which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way. That’s the same issue that comes up if you go to a couple therapist or support group for marriage problems. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have an experience where you’re coming in for something really tangible for yourself. So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you, and that the class will discuss sexual violence as a topic. So this just feels impossible for you to be safe in this environment, because it’s going to remind you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind respond to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had. Anne: And the trauma you continue to experience because the likelihood of him gaslighting you through this whole thing is like off the charts. the System focuses on what it means for the perpetrator Nicole: You’re right. It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator. You and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class. And so the perpetrator might disparage the victim, might tell lies about what happened to avoid accountability. You’re right. A victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? Most people, if you think about it rationally, would say, that’s a reasonable set of requests. You know, you’ve already experienced a sexual assault. That’s enough of a burden. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too. But in our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim comes forward and says, “This is what I need,” the entire system is focused on, “But what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him?” That happens within a support group for marriage problems. The focus can be on the perpetrator. This is one of the stories I start the book with. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it. There is no version of a sexual assault response in our society that can intervene in two weeks. We don’t really have a version of that right now. That’s a big part of why coming forward is so harmful, because they will tell you to wait. They will re-traumatize you. They will force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator. Metaphor of hot stove with women in scenarios including a support group for marriage problems Anne: I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios. But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order, and he continues to violate the protective order. And she keeps calling it in, and then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. In the meantime, there’s no protection for her. To hear the prosecutor talk about the date of the court hearing, rather than to hear somebody say, “I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore.” That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension. Nicole: I use this metaphor putting your hand on a hot stove. Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. Just keep being burned while we decide what to do. And if it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. And a better system would say, let’s turn off the stove. We’re just going to turn it off and we’re going to take a minute to figure out what to do next. Anne: This happens in marriages all the time. Because the support group for marriage problems, the professional counselor, clergy, or any number of people she’s going to for help, don’t identify that “the stove is on,” to use your metaphor. They’re like, “Something’s wrong with you because you’re burned for no reason.” Nicole: Right. Or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in a lot of these systems to say, “Well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something?” victims just want to feel safe Nicole: And so that would be akin in the same metaphor to saying, “Well, why don’t we have the stove turned down a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining they’re being burned?” And that doesn’t make sense. We as a culture are comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims, as long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse takes place when there is a power inequity. And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator, that will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse. Anne: My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to reporting or not reporting. For me and many women who have been through it, reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail. I just wanted him to leave me alone. In my personal case, I had a protective order. The criminal court said, “Do not talk to him, you have a protective order,” but the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. So for eight years, my ex abused me post divorce. A man I have a protective order against, who I do not want to talk to. But the civil court forces me to talk to him because of my kids. I didn’t want to report his abuse, so he went to jail. the Title ix debate Anne: I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases, where the judge is like, “Well, I can’t take away custody because then I’d be calling him an abuser. And then what? He’d go to prison.” Victims want to be safe. And in many of these civil cases, especially with kids. The safe parent, the mother, is seeking a support group for marriage problems, she is not trying to throw him in jail. And same thing in college, victims are just asking that he doesn’t go to this class, maybe he transfers schools. But for some reason, they equate it to prison. Nicole: That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history, in 1972, a law passed. And that law said sex discrimination is illegal on college campuses that receive federal funding. And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a very hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. And the law itself is just a single sentence. The law isn’t super clear about everything that’s included and not included. So there were a series of court cases to try to figure that out. One of them was in 1980, Alexander v. Yale, and that was the first court case that said that sexual violence should be illegal on a college campus, that it should be something that schools should do something about, and they should have their own internal proceedings to manage sexual violence. Colleges don’t follow the law and women seeking a support group for marriage problems Nicole: And the focus here wasn’t about sending people to jail. That’s what you could call the police for, if that’s what you wanted. This is specifically for scenarios where victims’ educations were impacted by their sexual assaults, intimate partner violence, stalking, or whatever they experienced. And so, the Department of Education had argued that schools need to do something to ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school, including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus. Let’s say he’s a professor, let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide sexual favors, which is what that 1980 court case was about. Part of what Title IX would require is removing the perpetrator from campus, because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. The issue was that schools just didn’t do it. And so every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about sexual harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention until the Obama administration. Anne: Was part of their justification for not doing their job them thinking, “If it was bad enough, she’d call the police.” Nicole: Certainly. Inside Higher Ed conducted a survey in 2015, where they asked university presidents, do you think campus sexual violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it,” which is not true. The Law captures national attention Nicole: By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have sexual violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it, “We don’t want to handle this, this is a criminal act, not a civil act.” But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized. And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay saying the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does. So exactly what you’re saying, that’s what they said. And to be clear, a lot of these Harvard Law professors were not specialized in issues of gender based violence. And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about sexual violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong. But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. Other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before. Prior to this moment, if you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus, your only rights were to know your accusations, and what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond, but there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it through hearings, some weren’t doing much of anything. A guest speaker example Nicole: And so, this new idea that anything involving sexual violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process. It is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it, and we should, because the stakes are so different. I call it “Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster.” Where, exactly like you’re describing, a victim says, “I need one thing,” and sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids. Married people live in student housing on college campuses with children, living in essentially the dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage. I need a support group for marriage problems. My partner is still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. And is there another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, essentially saying exactly what you are. “Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line.” And some stories that I heard during my time in the field were really unreasonable. For example: A guest speaker who came to a campus sexually harassed a woman. The guest speaker was CEO of a company. And he stalked and sexually harassed her since meeting her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again. They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights to this space. Men accused don’t have bad things happen to them: finding a support group for marriage problems Nicole: But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all of these horrible things that could happen to him if they took the victim’s wishes into consideration, which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again. I don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And they said things like, “He could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated.” And it’s not true. Because a lot of these proceedings are private. They can’t hand private files to the police. That’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They’re saying, “If you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person.” And yeah, we’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him, himself? It doesn’t make sense. Anne: Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist. Nicole: I completely agree. I think we can all see from just examples in pop culture, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of sexual assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. Women seeking a support group for marriage problems face this as well. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example. He made an entire comeback. He was having a hard time finding work in Hollywood because of his own behavior on set. Now he’s getting this second chance. Because he’s known as a perpetrator of domestic violence, which he never refuted, by the way. Accumulated fantasies of disaster Nicole: He never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued that she deserved it, which worked. Anne: That’s insane, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place from victim blaming first. I kept seeing people worry about worst-case scenarios…accumulated fantasies of disaster about what might happen to perpetrators. And how bad it’ll be if we say out loud what they did. But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings. Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. Court proceedings constrain the victim’s behavior. They don’t allow the victim to do X, Y, and Z, or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, forcing them to be in contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy. Anne: Yeah, they like it. Nicole: Yes! Anne: Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a strategy workshop. It’s called the Living Free Workshop, Click on that link and learn more. It helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves and find emotional safety in a support group for marriage problems. Because we don’t enjoy it. That’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, they enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose. Nicole: Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. They expelled one student for intimate partner violence while I was on campus. The dean of students facilitated a perpetrators transfer Nicole: So it is rare, I was on campus that year. But what that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator. This rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. The Dean of Students had already helped facilitate his transfer to another university by the time he was expelled. It was close enough, he didn’t even have to move apartments. And they had slowed down the proceedings for two years. Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable. But he didn’t graduate for a whole host of reasons. Instead, the victim had to take a leave of absence, for those two years. Because he was so violent and so dangerous that she couldn’t safely be on campus. And so they told her, you know, the same thing we’re talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from all these conversations. It is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator, every time we say, “I’m going to be fair to both people, I’m going to invite both of you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come.” What you’re really saying is the perpetrator is going to be here and the victim won’t. Because you’re not giving them anything that’s possible to do. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair. Everything is backwards: victim blaming and finding a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards. Anne: Yeah. Well, the other issue that people don’t recognize is that he is still going to be abusing her. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, “Oh, she’s so crazy.” That is abuse. And he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse. It’s not like this happened in the past. She still needs some sort of support group for marriage problems or victims of emotional abuse. Nicole: And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that still is a continuation of the abuse as well. Because I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. And so instead they say, “He seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting.” And that’s part of the plan too. A big part of that abuse is showing they can follow social norms, and treat people appropriately. And ultimately, it still leads to often, in this case, other people blaming the victim, questioning their legitimacy. That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings. They come in and they don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, “Oh, he must be fine.” Anne: It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that IS the abuse. And they don’t realize they’re abused too, because he’s lying. No one is helping victims transfer to a new school Nicole: A good point. Anne: The same thing happens everyday with the courts with civil custody cases. that part where you said the university helped him transfer his stuff to the new school. No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping wives in these scenarios. They have to find their own support group for marriage problems. Nicole: And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. And there’s actually an academic concept that I think would be helpful to your listeners. It’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as an institution’s actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma. So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic, and that’s one of the big things. How violent and traumatic an experience is for a victim is not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards. So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over? Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will? Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. We find survivors experiencing institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a sexual assault victim a second time in studies. It is an equal severity to that original act of violence. Institutional betrayal is overwhelming Nicole: Which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right, and for our friends and families to get this right too. Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. And I think it is overwhelming to think, “Wow, I thought the worst was over, but I could actually encounter something just as bad when I seek help,” is really overwhelming. But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims. And that’s the place where I come out on a hopeful side. Survivors who, when they seek help and get it, have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. So that’s got to be our goal here: to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to, and oh, it would take work and change to do something different. Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing because the stakes are really high. And we could really help a lot of people. Anne: I talk with victims every day. When couples therapists don’t help them, when clergy don’t help them, when police don’t help them, when the civil court system doesn’t help them, and when a support group for marriage problems doesn’t help them, my eye twitches. Nicole: I wanna say one of the things about institutional betrayal and the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims is that institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity if we already have some distrust for the institution. Setting realistic expectations when seeking a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: One of the key components is going to get help, and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to know what can happen. Anne: That’s what the Living Free Workshop is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. Like know these things beforehand. The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, every single one, there’s like a “Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline and then call our state domestic violence hotline.” And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that’s not the solution at all. In fact, one victim that I know, she recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, “Hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county.” We’re going to interview you. So she told them, ” Yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate.” She told him the whole story. She’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They reviewed her case. And they got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, “Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter?” Nicole: Oh my. Go to a confidential community Anne: So it was like a full circle, you know. People in general think how we have to do is put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article and problem solved. And if she called that number and she’s still in this mess, it’s her fault because she didn’t use the services correctly. Nicole: So I think one of the questions I get a lot is, if a lot of these systems aren’t trustworthy, where can we go? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one. That is different than a domestic violence service. You want one that’s confidential, because your group won’t call the police. The court can’t subpoena you. So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control. But that’s what I would say. Make sure you’re going somewhere confidential that will give you a lot of options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose their autonomy and become re-traumatized when they’re trying to find a good support group for marriage problems. What we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences, and I need help with these consequences.” They’re recast as punishing, and everything is focused on, “But that could be bad for the perpetrator.” That is one of the biggest red flags. Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body. Recognizing consequences are not unfair to the perpetrator Nicole: You can’t just say, “Oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator.” So it goes away. That’s one of the ones to think about. Conflation between addressing the consequences that are inevitable, that will happen due to the action of sexual violence, or coercion or harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced, and acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator. Anne: I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business, and the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court? And then everyone around him was telling him, “You have to attend church with this guy.” Nicole: Right, it’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair. Anne: And people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, “What I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse.” Nicole: Yeah. Anne: Thinking about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him, they can’t even talk about that because they’re like, “that would never happen.” Women need to find a support group for marriage problems that understands this. Nicole: I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. On a Title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents, when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint. Where a real act of violence happened, the victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responded by filing a second complaint saying, “Actually, I’m the true victim.” retaliatory complaints by perpetrators: help from a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard, where he doesn’t argue that there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is really to muddle the narrative, to confuse any investigators and to try to intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint. In those cases of retaliatory complaints, what I found is that the university didn’t care anymore about due process. When women were in the role of the accused, they faced a lot of consequences. I would actually argue punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them. It really is a gender issue. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader, because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, and so we should protect the more important person. And sometimes that comes out in really overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little bit more shielded in something more, called himpathy. So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. And what it means is excessive empathy given to men at the expense of women. What this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, “Well, you know, sexual abuse is horrible. It ruins the victim’s life. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one.” Empathizing with the perpetrator Nicole: It’s truly unbelievable if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. But it’s treated as this righteous thing is this idea of I’m a good person if I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society. And it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Our culture trains us to do this. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim. Anne: Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him. And people are like, so offended. Nicole: Yeah, people are offended. Anne: And I’m like, why are you so offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him? She needs a support group for marriage problems or victims. Nicole: I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, “Oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do.” Something administrators would say is, “Everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong. And so she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him.” And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way to recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner. Victims may lose friends, family and have to switch schools Nicole: The victim is the person who’s getting pushed out of her entire social group. One of the things that’s so traumatic about sexual violence is a lot of people lose all their friends, a lot of their family. They might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator. None of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair. When we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable, it’s hard for people to imagine what that looks like. When we know that we can’t trust a lot of these systems, we have to handle this as individuals and as communities. Because the trauma is going to leave a lifelong impact for the victim. It’s never going away. And so if we say, “Well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet?” That’s just not how it works. And I do think it’s really reasonable to say, “If you perpetrated a sexual assault, The bare minimum of consequences is if you see the victim in the grocery store at your new job. You turn around and you walk out and you go to a different grocery store, you get a different job.” This is very, very reasonable to ask for. Anne: 100 percent,I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk about finding a safe support group for marriage problems and victims today. Nicole: Thank you for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today. Anne: Yeah, thank you. Hailey’s Story of reporting on a campus Anne: So now a woman we’re gonna call Haley will actually share her story of reporting on a campus. Hers is specifically related to my faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and what she experienced at BYU. But I have heard stories like this from Jewish women, from Catholic women. We see these patterns everywhere. Including in a support group for marriage problems. Welcome Haley. Haley: Hi, thank you. Anne: Before we start, I received my associate degree from BYU Idaho, a million years ago. And when I went there, I loved the honor code. It helped me feel safe. For example, I felt so safe that my roommates weren’t allowed to have men in our apartment after 10:00 PM. Is that what it is? I don’t even remember. Haley: I think they bumped it up to midnight. I felt the same way as you. I chose to come to BYU because I wanted to be in a safer environment and I knew I was signing an honor code. Anne: I appreciate that, and I want to be clear: I don’t know exactly how the honor code operates today. This won’t be an anti–honor code discussion. Instead, we’re examining how institutions implement the honor code—and how that implementation harms victims of abuse in multiple ways. Haley: Like you mentioned, I had two run-ins with the honor code office. One my freshman year and one my senior year. And both times I was left feeling very alone, like I did something horrible. I felt a responsibility to speak out Haley: I felt like that my freshman year, and kept my mouth shut. Because I was embarrassed. I felt totally ashamed alone, so I kept quiet. I felt like I was in a different place when they called me in again. To put me back on probation at the end of my Senior year. I felt like it was my responsibility to speak out against what was going on. I had to wait to speak out until I got my diploma. Initially, I started just because I wanted to see if there was anyone else out there who felt the same way I did. I knew I had a few close friends and a few close family who had been through the honor code office and were treated poorly. So I gathered all our stories together. Really, it was like a support system. Even if five people could see it and feel like they weren’t alone, that would have been good enough for me. I know that you’re doing the same thing, allowing people to share their stories is healing for everyone. There’s something about being anonymous. You feel safe. Being able to tell other people what happened to you, and having other people say, “I am so sorry. I had no idea. I’m here for you.” I think it is healing. Anne: Yeah, it is so healing. I’m so grateful that so many women are willing to share their stories on my podcast. And I’m grateful that you’re here sharing yours today. The first time a perpetrator you had a restraining order against, was the one that turned you into the honor code office. And the second time it was your abusive ex-boyfriend. experiences with the honor code office Anne: Talk about how that felt to have the honor code office used as a weapon by abusive men. Haley: I had moved 2,000 miles away and started school. The first time I got called in, I was told that I was called in by a man from my past who had really hurt me. It was hurtful to sit on my counselor’s couch and tell her this was years behind me. Tell her who this man is, how he made me feel, and how I was scared of him. And how I wanted to put everything that had happened 2,000 miles away in my past behind me. I sat on her couch crying and said, “Please take my side. Please have my back. Here’s how he’s affected my life for years now, and I really need you to have my back. Especially now that I’m sitting here telling you who it was that reported me, I really need your protection.” And she responded and said, “It didn’t matter how I got caught. What mattered was that the Holy Spirit wanted me to get caught.” As a freshman, 18 years old, I was already terrified to be in there. Sitting across from the stranger I didn’t know, asking for help. And she told me it didn’t matter. That just felt sick. It was pretty discouraging. No offers for a victim support. And then the second time with the ex-boyfriend, it was frustrating because I told her, “Look, I have not talked to this kid in over a year. I’m so sorry for what happened. I’ve already dealt with it with my Bishop. I don’t understand why he can come in and jeopardize my future, my education and my diploma.” Blame for the problem: parallels with help for finding a support group for marriage problems Haley: She took his side and told me, “Well, he’s the one that came in, and he came in on his own goodwill, and you didn’t.” It was frustrating too, because he was Elder’s Quorum president at the time. Anne: For our listeners, that is a calling within the church that puts them in charge of the men’s organization. Haley: And she brought that up and wanted to remind me of his position in the church. And she told me that the spirit wasn’t in my home. And so it was harder for both parties to keep the commandments. So an ex-boyfriend turned me in. And having his calling thrown in my face was pretty hurtful. Anne: Wait, so she blamed you. Because apparently the Spirit’s not in your home. I’m being sarcastic here. The reason he acted poorly is all your fault. Haley: Right. I mean, she’s accusing me, asking if I am going to church, what my calling is, and what my relationship is with God. But she wanted to remind me of his position in church, and then put me in my place. And just for all those reasons, it was so hurtful. Anne: That is awful. I’m so sorry. I bet you felt so validated when people started sharing their stories, and women feel that with a good support group for marriage problems as well. Because you ended up reading thousands of other victim stories about the honor code office. What were some themes that you noticed? Theme’s in dealing with the Honor Code Office Haley: I noticed a lot of people who don’t even want to talk to anyone about what happened, which is scary. Another theme is that when they go into that office, they feel like it is their fault. I have had so many people say, my counselor told me that this is because I did this. This is because I wore this. I said this. Anne: If he’s using sexual coercion, getting him out of your apartment by 10:00 PM would have been almost impossible. They might say, “It’s your fault you were raped because you let him stay longer than 10:00 PM.” I mean, there are so many elements with sexual coercion. People really don’t understand. Haley: They did try to separate the Title IX office and the Honor Code office. People are still unfortunately not reporting. Because they’re still afraid that when they go in there, somehow to get looped into the honor code office. And in a lot of cases, it still has. BYU says their policy has changed, but unfortunately, the policy is not what’s practiced. Anne: We see that with bishops too. The policy is: We have no tolerance for abuse in the church. And yet victims say, “My husband is using pornography. He is lying to me. He’s having sex with other women.” They need an understanding of what safety looks like in a support group for marriage problems. In The Proclamation to the Family, people who engage in infidelity and abuse will be held accountable. And instead, a bishop might say, what are you doing wrong? How could you help the situation? Have you heard any stories where the victim had a good experience going to the honor code office? Advice for victims Haley: I do have stories where women went in and said, “Here’s who it is, here’s what he’s done.” And BYU has expelled them. Someone that I’m very close to has a story very similar to this. Even though they expelled the man, she never heard from the honor code office again. And that’s another issue too. If you are a woman and finally do have the courage to go tell BYU what’s going on, and let’s say best case scenario, they do kick this student out of school. I can’t speak for the whole school in general, but a lot of these students are still saying they’re not there for me. For the most part. They just don’t feel like the university in general has their back with this. Anne: So from your own experience and from reading all these stories that you’ve received, what would you want current students who are sexual assault victims to hear? Haley: I would first want them to know that they are not alone. I don’t know how comforting that can be for everyone, but I know at least for the people I’ve talked with, just hearing that this isn’t just happening to them. And there are other women out there who are feeling this way too. And people that you can turn to and trust and share your story with is really important. Like what happens with a good support group for marriage problems. Overwhelming and heartwarming to connect with others in a support group for marriage problems or victims Haley: Also, we do not want these stories to discourage students from turning in these kinds of cases. BYU does have a victim advocate that does a good job, from what I’ve been told at protecting students. I just want every sexual assault victim to know that it is not your fault, and that every time they speak up for what has happened to them, they’re speaking up for all the women behind them. It’s been overwhelming and so heartwarming to see even other female students who will comment and DM me. Like, if this is your story, message me. I will take you out to lunch. I want to talk to you. I’m here for you. If you ever need anyone, send me a message to this Instagram. I just want them to know that there are people out there who care so much, love them, and want them to be on campus.We love the church and the school. We don’t want to leave. Students know what they signed. So we’re not here to fight the standards on campus. We are really just looking for protection for our students within the honor code office. Something has to change. Anne: I’m so grateful for you sharing your story and grateful for anyone willing to have an ongoing layered conversation about these topics and finding a safe support group for marriage problems.ƒ It’s not like we just talk about this issue once and then it goes away, right? It has to be an ongoing layered conversation in order to make meaningful change. Haley: Right. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was so good to talk with you. I would love to meet you one day. I really enjoyed our conversations.

If you’re searching how to deal with angry husband, it’s probably because you’ve already tried everything—being understanding, being patient, being quieter, being “better,” being the emotional shock-absorber for the whole house. And yet… nothing changes. Before you take another step, here’s the most important truth you need to hear: Your safety—emotional, physical, spiritual—is the priority.Everything else is secondary.His “anger issue” is not yours to decode. So many women spend years trying to figure out why their husband is angry: Is he stressed? Does he need therapy? Did I say something wrong? Is it childhood trauma? Is it me? But here’s what women discover in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery community again and again: Men who don’t want to be angry, aren’t. Men who use anger to control the people around them use anger as a tactic. Can He Control His Anger? Watch What He Does in Public One of the clearest signs something deeper is happening is this: He has no trouble keeping it together in public.Around friends, coworkers, church members, your kids’ teachers… he’s calm, charming, composed. But at home? He unleashes. If you’re living this split reality, there’s definately something deeper going on. You’re not imagining it. I Used to Think My Husband Had an Anger Problem How to deal with angry husband? I thought my husband needed anger management. He even took multiple courses, including anger boot camp. Nothing changed. Because he didn’t have an anger problem. His problem was something else entirely. How to Deal With Angry Husband: 10 Questions That Reveal the Truth If you’ve been wondering how to deal with angry husband, start here.These 10 questions help clarify whether his anger is situational… or something that’s eroding your sense of safety. If you answer yes to any of these, it’s worth paying closer attention to the pattern—not the excuse. Do you often feel hurt, ashamed, or embarrassed after his anger? Are you afraid to upset him because you fear he’ll leave you or punish you emotionally? Have you spent time searching for clues about why he’s angry—as if there’s a hidden code to crack? Has he made subtle or direct threats?(Example: “Touch is my love language… I get depressed when you pull away.” Translation: Give me sex or pay for it later.)  Do you find yourself trying to predict his moods and make things perfect for him anticipating his anger?  Have you tried describing how angry he gets to other people, but they don’t seem to understand? Do you feel confused about what’s true versus what he claims when he’s angry? Have you ever used sex to smooth things over or prevent him from becoming angry? Do you feel emotionally abandoned because of his anger?  Do you feel like sometimes you caused his anger? If any of these hit close to home, it’s important to know your husband’s anger has nothing to do with you, other than the fact that he’s using it to control you. So actually… How to Deal With Angry Husband? Well, it’s sort of a trick question. Women in our community start feeling clearer when they shift from: ❌ “How do I help him?”to✔️ “How do I help myself and my kids be safe, emotionally and physically?” That shift changes everything. Our daily online group for women who have been betrayed in this way can validate and support you. Your Next Step Toward Clarity For deeper clarity, my Living Free Workshop walks you step-by-step through understanding what’s really going on, without pressure for you to do anything, without therapy jargon, and without being told to “just work on the marriage.” You’re not asking for too much. You deserve emotional safety and peace. To discover if you’re actually experiencing emotional abuse, take this free this test has 19 emotional abuse examples that women often miss. Transcript: How to Deal With Angry Husband Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. I have Janice and Cameron on the podcast today. They’re gonna share a part of their story about how to deal with angry husband. Janice, why don’t you go ahead and let’s start with your story. Janice: Thank you, Anne. I appreciate it. I was a victim of domestic abuse, but I didn’t recognize it. All of those years, while in that marriage, we would reach out to counselors, pastors. Usually we’d go to a pastor first and they would treat it like a marital problem. And most of the time, the attempts to get help made things worse. It really just boggled my mind that everywhere I turned to get help, whether it be the courts, law enforcement, counselors, nobody knew how to deal with our situation. I came through a church where the pastor didn’t know what to do. He thought that I should just get out of the marriage. And when he told me that, I thought, well, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I went to a church that believed more like I did, and they told me, well, you need to submit as long as he’s not asking you to sin. And the more I submitted or obeyed or bowed down to him, the more things would get worse. Submission was taught Like obedience Anne: Yeah, I went through a similar experience. I felt like I was like facing this problem head on. I just don’t know exactly what the problem is. And everyone I went to for help didn’t tell me what it was. And so I did everything right. But the people supposed to help me did not help. You mentioned your pastor said, “You should consider divorce,” And you thought to yourself, this man doesn’t know Jesus. I actually hear that a lot. Women hear my podcast and they think I’m like pro-divorce or maybe not Christian or something. When I very, very much am. And I think Jesus doesn’t want women abused. Janice: Absolutely. I had actually grown up in a pretty liberal church, and then after marriage I moved to one with strict teaching on men’s and women’s roles. Submission was taught like obedience. And then of course all the years I became a homeschool mom, listening to things like Focus on the Family. Where they talk about how your children will be better off if you stay married, that a divorce is so painful and hurtful to children, and my own parents had divorced. So I really did not believe in divorce. And it got to the point that my daughter, who was 12 years old at the time, said, Mom, why don’t you just get out? And I said, God hates divorce. I kept asking myself, what does God say about divorce and marriage? But I had about a million things in my head that I had come to believe, put there by my husband. He would say things like, You need to submit. I’m the head of this house. He would use scripture to keep me under control. Interpreting abuse as only physical Anne: How did you realize that submitting to abuse or evil wasn’t what Jesus wanted? Janice: I don’t even know if I came to that recognition until after I got out. My ex was a physician, so we worked with a psychologist one-on-one for a week. I had been telling myself, this is not abuse. He doesn’t mean it. He just flips out and he really can’t control it. It’s like a little nervous breakdown, but I realized he used everything against me, and that is not physical violence. Before that, I interpreted abuse as only physical, and I had had some incidents, but they were few and far between. We could go years with no physical abuse, but then when they did happen, I would get shoved or blocked in a room. it did build up and was worse there towards the end than in the beginning. Anne: Me too. I think I only had maybe three like episodes where he actually touched me, and he didn’t really even harm me except for the last time when he got arrested, he sprained my fingers. But for me, the emotional and psychological abuse was way worse. And that’s what took me forever to wrap my head around. And that’s what’s hard is that if we don’t recognize what’s happening and we go to get help from like a therapist or the church. They don’t recognize it, so they’re not gonna help us. Janice: Their church is not understanding, just like victims. We don’t understand the dynamic, so how can we expect them to understand? How to deal with angry husband: Quoting scripture and praying doesn’t make someone righteous Anne: Yeah. Church is especially problematic when it comes to abusers because they go to church and they read their scriptures and they pray and they know how to act like a God-fearing man, you know? And so you can’t wrap your head around that. They’re intentionally lying and manipulating you, and neither can the people at church, but just because they can quote scripture and pray and they sound righteous. If they are lying, if they’re using inappropriate media, if they’re having affairs, if they’re screaming at their family all the time, if they’re like throwing their weight around because they’re selfish. ‘Cause they don’t wanna have to cook dinner, they don’t want a dirty toilet. They’re not righteous, no matter how many scriptures they can quote. They should be studying scriptures on betrayal. Janice: Yeah, and they know that. Jesus talked about wolves among sheep, right? So I think that they know that and they will actually use the church for their own gain. I mean, Paul talks about it in his epistles. Anne: You and I both have physical abuse as part of our story, and with mine it was extremely minimal. I’m not trying to minimize his abuse. I’m just saying like one time he pushed me into the bed, but it didn’t hurt me. It was just scary. And then there was all the punching walls and physical intimidation, which is also physical abuse. I just didn’t see it as that at the time, I could tell that he was getting really mad because he wanted me to back off and I wouldn’t back off. Emotional abuse is dangerous, how to deal with angry husband? Anne: I would just keep going and I thought like maybe he’ll punch me and then at least I’d have a bruise. I know a lot of women who think that, ‘ cause without the physical violence, you’re still being severely abused. It’s just so much harder to figure out. How to deal with angry husband? Janice: I would much rather he hit me. To me, the emotional abuse can be so much worse than physical, depending on the type of physical abuse. Anne: Well, yeah, ’cause it’s really clear if someone punches you in the face. But the manipulation and the gaslighting, like impossible to figure out sometimes. And that’s not our fault. It’s his fault. ‘Cause he is like literally hiding stuff. Also, there are many stories, and I’ve talked about them on the podcast like Susan Powell and Leah Moses, Michael Haight, and the dentist from Colorado. I’ve done episodes about the warning signs your husband might kill you. They were not physically abusive and then they killed their family members suddenly. It’s not like they had a history of physical abuse before they committed murder, but they did have a history of emotional and psychological abuse. Janice: Yes, that’s the thing . I’ve got a friend whose husband was just emotionally abusive, just emotionally abusive for years. She left and went to her parents’ house, so he stormed in and killed her parents and left her for dead. Anne: That is awful. I am so sorry. I am so sorry. Oh yeah. I mean, that’s the worst case scenario. And not making light of that at all, but like it’s also the worst case scenario to be continually emotionally and psychologically abused. If you obey the commandments you should be blessed Anne: There’s no silver lining to abuse, and that’s why it’s so traumatizing. It’s traumatizing, just that the person you trusted with your life betrayed you. How to deal with angry husband? Janice: Abuse in and of itself is a huge betrayal of the bond that we are supposed to have. It is our most intimate relationship, and so there’s nothing like that. It’s such a deep wound. One day I’m saying, Lord, nobody knows what’s this feels like. Nobody understands what I’m going through right now. And it felt like the Holy Spirit dropped all over me and I could feel Jesus saying, I know. I know what it’s like to be betrayed by somebody I love. I know what it’s like to have somebody that I trusted turn on me. He was betrayed. So we have a God who understands when we are experiencing betrayal trauma. People, they don’t appreciate us. They see us more as objects and possessions than partners, and so it’s just a really difficult thing to deal with. I still had a lot of faith, but I also really questioned God’s goodness. If he’s good, why is he allowing this to happen to me? Anne: Yeah, especially if you followed the council of your church and you were doing what you thought Jesus wanted you to do. If you obey the commandments, you’re supposed to be blessed. It’s really hard to feel any blessings when there’s an abusive man standing between you and the blessings that God wants to give you. In terms of the church, like Jesus said, that if you lust after a woman, you’ve committed adultery. And so here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we view pornography use as abusive. how to deal with angry husband: Abusers have mindsets of entitlement Anne: And I’m coming out with a book soon that talks all about that. In addition to all the other reasons why lying and betrayal is a domestic abuse issue, and a lot of people disagree with me, they don’t think that pornography use, or lying about pornography use, or an affair is emotional and psychological abuse. But I’m like, you’re just not educated about emotional and psychological abuse, and I wasn’t either. So … Janice: Definitely they go hand in hand. Because the heart behind domestic abuse is basically objectifying as possessions. And that is exactly what pornography does. It’s looking at women as objects. I mean, pornography changes and rewires the brain and the way that men can have intimacy with women . Abusers have mindsets loaded with entitlement, pornography is also an entitlement issue. Like I can look at anything I want to any time. There are no rules for me when it comes to this department. It is definitely the same mindset that you see. Anne: Yeah, which to me means that if you are in a relationship with an active pornography user, you are in a relationship with an abuser. I say this all the time: Drug addicts abuse drugs. Alcoholics abuse alcohol. Sex addicts abuse people. So people are the thing that they abuse. I’m just so frustrated with like therapists or clergy because they say the solution to addiction is connection and they’re asking a victim of abuse to support her abuser, and that is unethical on all sorts of levels. I also don’t think it’s doing the abuser any favors. Like I don’t think he’s actually gonna get help with that approach. He’s choosing his behavior Anne: It took us a long time to wrap our heads around the fact that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive. What would you share with women who were in the situation that we were in at one point? Janice: Well, you remember I talked about going into this program to learn how to deal with angry husband and I told the guy who was facilitating our week long intensive, I said, he just loses it. He can’t control his anger. He just flips out and he starts breaking things. And he goes, well, wait a minute. So when he is breaking things, who stuff does he break? Does he break your stuff only or his stuff and everybody’s stuff. And I said, well, it’s mostly just my stuff. Then he says, does he flip out on people at work like that? And I said, no, not really. He said, well, then that tells me that he’s got control over this. He’s choosing this behavior. A lot of times the truth is ugly. We have to admit that ugly truth before we can embrace beautiful truth. And the truth is that he uses kindness to manipulate. It’s not that he’s losing control at all. It’s that he’s using, whether it be anger or kindness, he’s using both to control. And that was a painful eye-opener to me. It was a very needed one for me to finally move towards healing. Anne: Yeah, that was a big one for me too. Well, Janice thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you sharing your story and your thoughts. Janice: Well, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. Attributing his good traits to me Anne: Cameron, go ahead. Cameron: So I got married really young and I had no idea hes love bombing me. It felt flattering. He was saying all the sweet things, and he talked trash about every woman he dated before me, how disgusting or nasty his exes were. And part of me felt special. Like, wow, he thinks I’m different. One morning over breakfast, he was like, I think I need a break. But like the night before he told me he wanted to marry me, I was devastated. And then a week later, he shows back up saying, I made a huge mistake. And the relief, I mean, I don’t, I don’t think there’s anything more intoxicating than the relief that follows emotional torture. I took it as a sign that he was the one. He’d say things like, I stopped looking at inappropriate media because of you. I’m closer to my family because of you. I’m doing better in school because of you. He attributed all his good traits to me. Anne: I’m so glad you brought that up, because then when he doesn’t do well in school or he starts looking at pornography again, then he blames you because you weren’t helping him be a better person anymore. How to deal with angry husband? Cameron: Yeah, he was just setting me up to blame me for not doing that stuff later. how to deal with angry husband: His Little abusive accidents? Anne: Before you got on to interview, you were telling me about like the covert physical abuse. Like he would never punch you in the face, but he’d sort of like pretend like he couldn’t see you and step on your foot and stuff like that. Can you talk about that? Cameron: The whole time there were these little accidents, opening a door when I was standing too close, so it hit me. Accidentally tripping me. I was like, wow. He’s super strong and big and he just didn’t see me there. Anne: Yeah. It’s like a threat. Cameron: Totally, his anger was always looming over me. I never knew when he was gonna lose it or how to deal with angry husband. Anne: Yeah. I experienced that as well. My, um, ex punched a wall a couple times and then that hole in the wall, like it just sat there and every time I saw it I thought, wow, he’s capable of that. Cameron: I totally know what you mean. Anne: . Like he could destroy stuff, but he never destroyed anything that he cared about. Cameron: He told me I just lost control, but he didn’t hit his beloved TV. And I’d think, okay, but if you really lost control, wouldn’t you have hit me? So clearly you have control. Anne: If I lost it, is there excuse? That’s a serious threat. That’s like even worse because he could really hurt somebody if he loses control and punches stuff. I don’t think they realize that it actually makes them look worse if they say they lost it. His anger is out of control Cameron: I know he might like rip one of our pet’s heads off or something. Anyway, one 4th of July, we were driving to his brother’s lake house and he goes, my parents emotionally abused me. I need you with me at all times while we’re there. So I tried to stay near him, but of course there’s all the kids running around and I’d come and go and check in. But at one point, one of the kids needed my help in the garage. He found me, got mad and punched a hole in his brother’s garage wall. I mean, crazy town. His brother’s all furious and I’m so embarrassed I’m like, it was my fault. I made him mad. His brother shrugged, like, whatever. My husband apologized and said he’d fix it. Later my mother-in-law asked where he was and I said, he’s in the garage fixing the hole. And I remember thinking, why is no one asking? What the heck is wrong with him? And it wasn’t just them. I reached out to our pastor, my family, I said, I mean, “Sure his pornography is a problem, but his anger is out of control.” And everybody was like, be a better wife, have more sex, be patient, use I statements, read The Power of a Praying Wife, avoid the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Anne: I also tried to avoid the four horsemen of the apocalypse, like trying not to stonewall, trying not to criticize what he is doing, you’re supposed to tell him your feelings, but you can’t tell him your feelings. So like if you say something, you’re crazy and then if you don’t say something, you’re crazy. How to deal with angry husband? A whole unfit mother campaign Anne: Like if I go to therapy, there’s something wrong with me. If I don’t go to therapy, there’s something wrong with me. How to deal with angry husband? Cameron: Yes, that! How can it not be overwhelming when they tell you, you have to be absolutely perfect so he can like be nice. And I did everything they told me. And because he was so charming in public, so helpful and humble and worship-team perfect. No one believed me. He’s telling everyone I was lazy, dependent, a whole unfit mother campaign. Telling people I partied every weekend. Left him with the kids. Anne: They told me, “You’re trying to ruin your family.” Did they use that one on you? Cameron: I didn’t hear that one, but the one I heard over and over and over was, “She doesn’t realize how good she has it.” Then there was the sexual coercion, which I had no idea what that was until I found BTR. If I wasn’t in the mood. Mostly because he’d yelled at me like 10 minutes before, he’d sulk, ignore me, punish me with silence. I realized he only loved me when I gave him exactly what he wanted, and I didn’t wanna poke the bear, didn’t want the sulking or the anger or any more holes in the wall. And anytime I brought up help, he’d say, I’m gonna change. I’ll find a program next week. But the minute I was like, when? He’d explode. Then came the counselors. Ooh, the counselors one told him I was controlling. Another one said his needs weren’t met, that he should demand more from me. That same one told me my husband was just frustrated because of my anxiety. How to deal with angry husband: He’s an addict because of low self-esteem Cameron: Then my husband starts seeing this revered CSAT ’cause he now has a sex addiction. And that guy is like, he’s an addict because of his low self-esteem. Anne: The sexual addiction thing is so problematic. It’s not that pornography isn’t addictive and it is not that he is not a pornography addict. But in relation to you, he’s emotionally abusive. How to deal with angry husband? His addiction isn’t your problem, his abuse is your problem. But when his addiction comes into the mix, people are like, oh, he’s willing to be vulnerable. He is willing to talk about his addiction. He is willing to go to a treatment program, so things are gonna get better. After I’ve interviewed so many women, I found that is like rarely the case. Because she’s not experiencing his addiction. So as I’m listening to your story, I’m like bracing myself. Cameron: I know, right? So my husband comes home like, this isn’t about you. It’s about me loving myself. And I’m sitting there thinking, okay, so you’re gonna go on a three hour beach run every day while I raise our seven kids alone. I thought his family would care, nope. Within days of me asking them for support, I became the villain. I was crazy. I had borderline personality disorder. They actually told me, we know he has a temper, but you married him. You knew, so that’s on you. Anne: So wait. Their contention was that you consented to emotional abuse because you married him, because that’s not the thing. Cameron: Right. Totally. Focusing on emotional safety Cameron: And during that week, I prayed harder than I’ve ever prayed in my life. Sat at my computer and I typed in everything I was feeling. And one of your podcasts popped up. That’s how I found BTR. Anne: That’s amazing. How to deal with angry husband? I’ve heard that from so many women who were like praying and they sat down on their computer and they found BTR. I am so grateful that you found us. Our group sessions, and the workshop focus on your emotional safety only. That’s it. Cameron: Yeah. It’s so different than any other type of therapy or program and it’s so much better. It actually makes sense. After I found you everything shifted. I started learning your strategies in the workshop and how to use boundaries that actually worked. Unlike that dumb CSAT that had me set the stupidest boundaries. From BTR, I learned that nothing he did was because he felt ashamed or had low self-esteem. It was because he chose abuse. I started doing the meditations in your workshop. They helped a ton. I went to like six group sessions a week. I could finally think again. And I could feel my own feelings instead of the ones he assigned to me. So grateful for btr Cameron: I started to trust myself. Meanwhile, he’s losing weight, and everyone is suddenly so worried about him. Women coming up to me like, he looks so thin. Are you guys okay? Our kids are falling apart, and no one even asks them how they’re doing. And the church board completely bought into all his lies. They were like, why won’t you let him come home? Can’t you talk to him differently? Don’t say things that make him mad. It was awful. Truly awful. I would’ve never made it through without the workshop and the BTR community, the coaches, the podcast, everything. I don’t know what I would’ve done without BTR. I’m so grateful. Anne: Yeah, that’s why I created BTR, because when I went through it, I couldn’t find help. I had the same experience that you did, like going to tons of therapists that couldn’t help. trying to find out how to deal with angry husband. Thank you so much, Cameron, for sharing your story today.